Conflicted results of accentuation
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Conflicted results of accentuation
We're going through Athenaze chapter 2 and the issue of proclitic followed by enclitic words came up.
In their explanation, the 1st person sl. do not throw its accent on the proclitic but is accented on its ultima,
I am not strong = οὐκ εἰμὶ ἰσχυρὸς
however the 3rd person sl. is accented on its first syllable and the proclitic remains without accent.
He is not lazy = οὐκ ἔστιν ἀργός
Now. what I've learned in my university course is that all persons (aside from the non-enclitic 2nd.sl.) other than 3rd.sl.
are not accented but throw their accent on the proclitic,
I am not smart = οὔκ εἰμι σοφός
Τhey are not just = οὔκ εἰσι δίκαιοι
To make matters worse, if the 3rd person sl. has the meaning of existence, there is,
some say that it will not be accented on its first syllable but behave as the rest, throwing its accent
on the proclitic, οὔκ ἐστι σοφός = There is no wise man
So the mind boggles still.
please lay out clear rules as to when an enclitic preceded by prolclitic is accented and when the latter is.
In their explanation, the 1st person sl. do not throw its accent on the proclitic but is accented on its ultima,
I am not strong = οὐκ εἰμὶ ἰσχυρὸς
however the 3rd person sl. is accented on its first syllable and the proclitic remains without accent.
He is not lazy = οὐκ ἔστιν ἀργός
Now. what I've learned in my university course is that all persons (aside from the non-enclitic 2nd.sl.) other than 3rd.sl.
are not accented but throw their accent on the proclitic,
I am not smart = οὔκ εἰμι σοφός
Τhey are not just = οὔκ εἰσι δίκαιοι
To make matters worse, if the 3rd person sl. has the meaning of existence, there is,
some say that it will not be accented on its first syllable but behave as the rest, throwing its accent
on the proclitic, οὔκ ἐστι σοφός = There is no wise man
So the mind boggles still.
please lay out clear rules as to when an enclitic preceded by prolclitic is accented and when the latter is.
Nate.
- jaihare
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
Good question. I'd like to know, too.
Jason Hare
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jason@thehebrewcafe.com
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
All questions are answered here, though you may be sad to have asked: http://books.google.com/books?id=6KgNAAAAQAAJ
For the most part, editors are in agreement about what sort of accenting should happen when and where. There are certain edge cases, however, where things can get messy.
For the most part, editors are in agreement about what sort of accenting should happen when and where. There are certain edge cases, however, where things can get messy.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
- benissimus
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
I thought I was the only one!annis wrote:Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
The reason I feel at home at Textkit is; I don't feel like I'm the only Geek. My wife says I must be the only person who takes a three ring binder for bedtime reading.benissimus wrote:I thought I was the only one!annis wrote:Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Jason Hare
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
That depends on the authority you consult, at least as far as I can see.jaihare wrote:So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect?
Now, the 3sg. ἐστί has a bunch of rules unique to it, so that οὐκ ἔστι is the only correct form (Chandler 1882 §938). Several authorities say that all enclitic forms of εἰμί get an accent when following οὐ, ὡς or εἰ (Griffiths, p.16). I cannot find confirmation of this in Chandler.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
- jaihare
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
Do you mean the only incorrect form? How can οὐκ ἐστί be the only correct form when a majority of textbooks have οὐκ ἔστι?annis wrote:That depends on the authority you consult, at least as far as I can see.jaihare wrote:So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect?
Now, the 3sg. ἐστί has a bunch of rules unique to it, so that οὐκ ἐστί is the only correct form (Chandler 1882 §938). Several authorities say that all enclitic forms of εἰμί get an accent when following οὐ, ὡς or εἰ (Griffiths, p.16). I cannot find confirmation of this in Chandler.
One example is First Greek Book, §166, where it states in point 3: "When it follows οὐκ, εἰ, ὡς, καἰ, τοῦτο, and some other words, {it appears} as οὐκ ἔστι Κύρῳ πλοῖα, Cyrus has no boats."
Thanks.
Jason Hare
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jason@thehebrewcafe.com
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
D'oh! I accented ἐστί like the other forms of εἰμί. Fixed.jaihare wrote:[Do you mean the only incorrect form? How can οὐκ ἐστί be the only correct form when a majority of textbooks have οὐκ ἔστι?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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- jaihare
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Re: Conflicted results of accentuation
Not to bring up a dead thread with vengeance, but we were discussing this on GreekStudy, and I would assume that the whole conclusion would be as follows:
(1) It's a complicated issue.
(2) ουκ εστι should be accented οὐκ ἔστι in all situations.
(3) The accentuation of ουκ ειμι and ουκ εισι is debated among the sources, some saying οὔκ εἰμι/εἰσι and others οὐκ εἰμί/εἰσί. It depends on the authority that you consult.
Would that be a pretty good summary of what we discussed in this thread?
Thanks again,
Jason
(1) It's a complicated issue.
(2) ουκ εστι should be accented οὐκ ἔστι in all situations.
(3) The accentuation of ουκ ειμι and ουκ εισι is debated among the sources, some saying οὔκ εἰμι/εἰσι and others οὐκ εἰμί/εἰσί. It depends on the authority that you consult.
Would that be a pretty good summary of what we discussed in this thread?
Thanks again,
Jason
Jason Hare
jason@thehebrewcafe.com
jason@thehebrewcafe.com