Textkit Logo

Conflicted results of accentuation

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby NateD26 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:35 am

We're going through Athenaze chapter 2 and the issue of proclitic followed by enclitic words came up.
In their explanation, the 1st person sl. do not throw its accent on the proclitic but is accented on its ultima,
I am not strong = οὐκ εἰμὶ ἰσχυρὸς

however the 3rd person sl. is accented on its first syllable and the proclitic remains without accent.
He is not lazy = οὐκ ἔστιν ἀργός

Now. what I've learned in my university course is that all persons (aside from the non-enclitic 2nd.sl.) other than 3rd.sl.
are not accented but throw their accent on the proclitic,
I am not smart = οὔκ εἰμι σοφός
Τhey are not just = οὔκ εἰσι δίκαιοι

To make matters worse, if the 3rd person sl. has the meaning of existence, there is,
some say that it will not be accented on its first syllable but behave as the rest, throwing its accent
on the proclitic, οὔκ ἐστι σοφός = There is no wise man

So the mind boggles still.

please lay out clear rules as to when an enclitic preceded by prolclitic is accented and when the latter is.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby jaihare » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:50 pm

Good question. I'd like to know, too. :)
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
User avatar
jaihare
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am
Location: Israel

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby annis » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:17 am

All questions are answered here, though you may be sad to have asked: http://books.google.com/books?id=6KgNAAAAQAAJ

For the most part, editors are in agreement about what sort of accenting should happen when and where. There are certain edge cases, however, where things can get messy.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby NateD26 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:09 pm

Thank you, annis.
I'll begin reading it tonight. :)
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby annis » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:59 pm

NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.


Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby benissimus » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:08 pm

annis wrote:
NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.


Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.

I thought I was the only one!
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby Bert » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:41 pm

benissimus wrote:
annis wrote:
NateD26 wrote:I'll begin reading it tonight.


Oy! This is a book to consult, not read. And I say this as someone who finds Sihler's comparative grammar a suitable bedside book.

I thought I was the only one!
The reason I feel at home at Textkit is; I don't feel like I'm the only Geek. My wife says I must be the only person who takes a three ring binder for bedtime reading.
Bert
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
Location: Arthur Ontario Canada

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby jaihare » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:04 am

So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect? ;)

Thanks!
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
User avatar
jaihare
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am
Location: Israel

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby annis » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:09 pm

jaihare wrote:So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect?


That depends on the authority you consult, at least as far as I can see. :)

Now, the 3sg. ἐστί has a bunch of rules unique to it, so that οὐκ ἔστι is the only correct form (Chandler 1882 §938). Several authorities say that all enclitic forms of εἰμί get an accent when following οὐ, ὡς or εἰ (Griffiths, p.16). I cannot find confirmation of this in Chandler.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby jaihare » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:07 pm

annis wrote:
jaihare wrote:So, to summarize, would you say that the forms οὔκ εἰμι and οὔκ εἰσι are correct or incorrect?


That depends on the authority you consult, at least as far as I can see. :)

Now, the 3sg. ἐστί has a bunch of rules unique to it, so that οὐκ ἐστί is the only correct form (Chandler 1882 §938). Several authorities say that all enclitic forms of εἰμί get an accent when following οὐ, ὡς or εἰ (Griffiths, p.16). I cannot find confirmation of this in Chandler.


Do you mean the only incorrect form? How can οὐκ ἐστί be the only correct form when a majority of textbooks have οὐκ ἔστι?

One example is First Greek Book, §166, where it states in point 3: "When it follows οὐκ, εἰ, ὡς, καἰ, τοῦτο, and some other words, {it appears} as οὐκ ἔστι Κύρῳ πλοῖα, Cyrus has no boats."

Thanks.
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
User avatar
jaihare
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am
Location: Israel

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby annis » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:16 am

jaihare wrote:[Do you mean the only incorrect form? How can οὐκ ἐστί be the only correct form when a majority of textbooks have οὐκ ἔστι?


D'oh! I accented ἐστί like the other forms of εἰμί. Fixed.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby jaihare » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:04 pm

Thanks so much! :)
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
User avatar
jaihare
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am
Location: Israel

Re: Conflicted results of accentuation

Postby jaihare » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:54 am

Not to bring up a dead thread with vengeance, but we were discussing this on GreekStudy, and I would assume that the whole conclusion would be as follows:

(1) It's a complicated issue. :)
(2) ουκ εστι should be accented οὐκ ἔστι in all situations.
(3) The accentuation of ουκ ειμι and ουκ εισι is debated among the sources, some saying οὔκ εἰμι/εἰσι and others οὐκ εἰμί/εἰσί. It depends on the authority that you consult.

Would that be a pretty good summary of what we discussed in this thread?

Thanks again,
Jason
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
User avatar
jaihare
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:47 am
Location: Israel


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: C. S. Bartholomew, Google Adsense [Bot] and 51 guests