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ut = uti ?

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ut = uti ?

Postby justerman » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:56 pm

Caesar’s Gallic Wars contains the following passage (1.9.4):

Itaque rem suscipit et a Sequanis impetrat ut per fines suos Helvetios ire patiantur, obsidesque uti inter sese dent perficit:

I came to the passage thinking ut = uti, and that the sentence described two results achieved by Dumnorix.

But then I began to wonder why Caesar would use both words in one sentence. Lewis’s Elementary Latin Dictionary led me to understand that ut = uti only in certain usages. Uti would not be used to introduce a result, but ut and uti would be synonyms when introducing a temporal clause (in which the verb would be in the indicative). At this point I noticed that “perficit” was indicative.

So now I think the passage means something like: “. . . that they would allow the Helvetii to go through their territories as soon as he brought about the exchange of hostages”

Is my understanding correct? I ask because I haven’t seen this (temporal) sense expressed in the translations I have read.

Thank in advance for your help.
justerman
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby adrianus » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:49 pm

justerman wrote:But then I began to wonder why Caesar would use both words in one sentence.

Conceiving them both as synonyms, possibly it's to break any residual link with "impetrat ut", and to open the new link with "perficit"? I can't see why else. I'm guessing, and hoping others know.

Quod has conjunctiones synonyma habeo, hoc solum in mentem venit: sic Caesar scribit ut ulla affinitas verbo praecedenti "impetrat" enim secetur, atque nova sequenti "perficit" enim designetur. Conjecto modò, et ego, sicut tu, responsum ab aliquo qui scit exspecto.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby adrianus » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:09 pm

Salve justerman

Here is a recent example from this forum of what I mean.
Ecce exemplum recens et aptum, ut mihi videtur, ex hôc foro ipso.
little flower wrote:'Nemo docenti homini tribuat quod ex ore docentis intelligit ,quia nisi interius sit qui doceat doctoris lingua exterius in vacuum laborat.' (Taken from the foreword of Cardinal Edward to the book 'Bread of life' by st Thomas Aquinas).

Here I think "quod" and "quia" are synonymous,—"because" in English,—varied for the same reason that, in English, if you repeat "because" it's confusing, so you vary with "in so far as" in the first or "for" in the second.
Hâc in sententiâ, et quod et quia ut conjunctiones adhibentur, quae synonyma variantur ne clausulae mutuae confundantur.
"No one would set store in a fellow teaching in so far as they understand from the mouth of the one teaching, because unless the one teaching is within [the hearer], the teacher's tongue labours vainly on the outside."
or // vel
"No one would set store in a fellow teaching because they understand from the mouth of the one teaching, for unless the one teaching is within [the hearer], the teacher's tongue labours vainly on the outside."
but not // sed non
"No one would set store in a fellow teaching because they understand from the mouth of the one teaching, because unless the one teaching is within [the hearer], the teacher's tongue labours vainly on the outside."

Of course, if I'm wrong about the translation, my own tongue is operating in a vacuum.
Postremò, si malè verto, lingua mea propria in vacuum laborat.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby justerman » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:50 am

Thanks for staying with this adrianus. The translations you offer from St Gregory are all still pretty hard going, but I take your point that employing synonyms can help to make a sentence easier to comprehend.

But Caesar's use of two synonyms in one sentence was just the starting point for my reflection, which led me to conclude that:

" . . . obsidesque uti inter sese dent perficit"

was not a result clause, as perficit was indicative. That leads to quite a plausible translation:

“. . . that they would allow the Helvetii to go through their territories as soon as he brought about the exchange of hostages”

Would you agree with my reasoning?
justerman
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby adrianus » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:33 pm

"as soon as" the sentence lacks this // sententia hoc caret

"et perficit ut obsides inter sese dent" —"dent" is subjunctive // subjunctivo modo est "dent" verbum
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby justerman » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:06 pm

Yes, of course, I can see now that perficit need not be part of the clause introduced by uti. Thanks for putting me right adrianus.

As for the sentence missing "as soon as", my Elementary Lewis says ut/uti could provide that sense.

But I feel I've taken enough of your time already, so please don't feel you need to respond further. Thanks again, and enjoy the rest of the weekend.
justerman
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Re: ut = uti ?

Postby adrianus » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:03 am

justerman wrote:As for the sentence missing "as soon as", my Elementary Lewis says ut/uti could provide that sense.

Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. Thanks. And enjoy the rest of the weekend, you too.
En, id nescivi. Mihi curae est. Gratias tibi ago, justerman. Et tu fine hebdomadae utaris (reliquo saltem).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
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