alternate endings in third declension

[Geoff]

I've been studying Mounce's BBG and I'm confused about the alternate endings he gives. <br /><br />Under masculine and feminine nominative he gives <br /><br />a / - (no case ending)<br /><br />and under the accusative singer m/f he gives <br /><br />a / n <br /><br />One more thing. The word fwj is nueter while the neuter does not receive a case ending. If the root is fwt and the t drops off then how can we account for the n?<br /><br /><br />What is it that determines what words take the alternates or when they take them. I looked up xarin in logos and it says it is an improper preposition. <br /><br />Thanks <br />Geoff <br /><br /><br />

[Geoff]

That should be <br /><br />"... how do we acount for the j?" <br /><br />Sorry :-[

[Jeff Tirey]

Hi Geoff,<br /><br />What declension is this? <br /><br />jeff

[Skylax]

[quote author=Geoff link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7420 date=1064956487]<br />I've been studying Mounce's BBG and I'm confused about the alternate endings he gives. <br /><br />Under masculine and feminine nominative he gives <br /><br />a / - (no case ending)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Does he give some examples ?<br /><br />

<br />and under the accusative singer m/f he gives <br /><br />a / n <br />

<br /><br />It is about 3rd declension.<br />Example with A : [face=SPIonic]dai/mona[/face]<br />Example wiht N : [face=SPIonic]po/lin[/face]<br /><br />N is the sole true ending.<br />In this case, the A is nothing more than a vocalized N. (i.e. the form of N when it is used as a vowel)<br /><br />

<br />One more thing. The word fwj is nueter while the neuter does not receive a case ending. If the root is fwt and the t drops off then how can we account for the n?<br />

<br /><br />There are in fact TWO stems : a) [face=SPIonic]fwj[/face], used only in Nom and Acc sing <br />and b) [face=SPIonic]fwt-[/face], used in all remaining cases. so te S of <br />[face=SPIonic]fwj[/face] is no ending. It belongs to the stem.<br />More examples of words with two stems :<br />[face=SPIonic]to\ ke/raj, ke/ratoj, to\ go/nu, go/natos[/face] among others.<br /><br />Best regards.

[Emma_85]

You'll always have to learn the genitive of each noun as well as the nominative. Then you'll know which declension it follows and you'll also know about the stem changes. <br /><br />Now I'm not too sure what you mean with alternate endings. Do you mean a word like <br />[face=SPIonic]h( u(/brij[/face] genitive: [face=SPIonic]u(/brewj[/face]. <br /><br />Especially 3rd declension words don't have an ending in the nominative. Normally it's -s for masculine, and nothing for feminine. When you learn your vocabulary you always learn the nominative singular form of the noun, so there's no need to worry about the fact that some words don't have one specific ending in the nominative.

[Bert]

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7509 date=1065030425]<br /> Now I'm not too sure what you mean with alternate endings. Do you mean a word like <br />[face=SPIonic]h( u(/brij[/face] genitive: [face=SPIonic]u(/brewj[/face]. <br /><br /> The example Mounce gives is [face=SPIonic]xa/rij[/face] The accusative sg. is listed as [face=SPIonic]xa/rita[/face]. In a footnote he states: " In a few cases this word (and others like it) can have an accusative singular in nu ([face=SPIonic]xa/rin [/face])".[/quote]

[aemilius]

[quote author=Bert de Haan link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7544 date=1065050501]<br /> The example Mounce gives is [face=SPIonic]xa/rij[/face] The accusative sg. is listed as [face=SPIonic]xa/rita[/face]. In a footnote he states: " In a few cases this word (and others like it) can have an accusative singular in nu ([face=SPIonic]xa/rin [/face])".

<br />[/quote]<br /><br />May be that is because the stem of [face=SPIonic]xa/rij[/face] is [face=SPIonic]xarit[/face]-

[Emma_85]

[face=SPIonic]xa/rin e)/xw[/face] (to be thankful) is about the only time I've found they use that alternate ending, though.

[Skylax]

[quote author=aemilius link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7562 date=1065085278]<br /><br />May be that is because the stem of [face=SPIonic]xa/rij[/face] is [face=SPIonic]xarit[/face]-<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yes, it is. However, the Accusative singular is [face=SPIonic]xa/rin[/face] in the vast majority of the occurences, and it is always so when the name is used as a kind of preposition meaning "for the sake of, on behalf of..." It is due to an analogy with the declension of [face=SPIonic]po/lis[/face].

[Bert]

[quote author=Skylax link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7599 date=1065119053]<br /> However, the Accusative singular is [face=SPIonic]xa/rin[/face] in the vast majority of the occurences, and it is always so when the name is used as a kind of preposition meaning "for the sake of, on behalf of..." It is due to an analogy with the declension of [face=SPIonic]po/lis[/face]. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />In my vocabulary guide [face=SPIonic]xa/rin[/face] -for the sake of, because of, by reason of (impr. prep)-is listed as a seperate word. ??

[Geoff]

[quote author=Skylax link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7483 date=1065012351]<br />[/quote]<br /><br />N is the sole true ending.<br />In this case, the A is nothing more than a vocalized N. (i.e. the form of N when it is used as a vowel)<br /><br />That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Is there some rule or hint for recognizing when a word would receive a vocalized "N" as opposed to an "A"? Could you point me to a resource where this is discussed (on my elementary level)? <br /><br />

<br />One more thing. The word fwj is nueter while the neuter does not receive a case ending. If the root is fwt and the t drops off then how can we account for the n?<br />

<br /><br />There are in fact TWO stems : a) [face=SPIonic]fwj[/face], used only in Nom and Acc sing <br />and b) [face=SPIonic]fwt-[/face], used in all remaining cases. so te S of <br />[face=SPIonic]fwj[/face] is no ending. It belongs to the stem.<br />More examples of words with two stems :<br />[face=SPIonic]to\ ke/raj, ke/ratoj, to\ go/nu, go/natos[/face] among others.<br /><br />Are there any consistent characteristics among "two stem words"? <br />Mounce's text is really good and a wonderful approach. He discourages wrote memory and tries to give a common paradigm and show how it applies differently to different stems, but in a few spots he leaves a bit to be desired such as these. So I'm trying to "get it" instead of just memorizing 30 or so paradigms. <br /><br />Thanks for the help. <br />

[Geoff]

Most of my lexicons list xa/rin seperately than xa/rita <br /><br />It would appear that it is a different word with a different function because of this, but most of the lexicons also point out that this is an accusitive form of xa/rij <br /><br />Is is frequent for alternate or even regular accusative forms take the function of an improper preposition? <br /><br />Is this idiomatic (esp. in Koine)?

[aemilius]

[quote author=Geoff link=board=14;threadid=752;start=0#7668 date=1065206880]<br /><br />That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Is there some rule or hint for recognizing when a word would receive a vocalized "N" as opposed to an "A"? Could you point me to a resource where this is discussed (on my elementary level)? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Well here is what I have found:<br /><br />1. When substantives with stems in -[face=SPIonic]it[/face], -[face=SPIonic]id[/face] or -[face=SPIonic]iq[/face] are not accented on the ultima, the accusative singular generally has [face=SPIonic]n[/face] in place of [face=SPIonic]t[/face], [face=SPIonic]d[/face], [face=SPIonic]q[/face]. So [face=SPIonic]xa/ris[/face] ([face=SPIonic]xarit[/face]-) is [face=SPIonic]xa/rin[/face].<br />When the accent is on the ultima the acc. sing. is [face=SPIonic]a[/face]. So [face=SPIonic]e)lpi/s[/face] ([face=SPIonic]elpid[/face]-) is [face=SPIonic]e)lpi/da[/face]. (This is according to W.H. Davis Begginers Greek Grammar)<br /><br />2. When substantives have stems in -[face=SPIonic]i[/face] or -[face=SPIonic]u[/face], the accusative sing is -[face=SPIonic]n[/face]. So [face=SPIonic]po/lis[/face] -- [face=SPIonic]po/lin[/face], [face=SPIonic]i)xqu/s[/face] -- [face=SPIonic]i)xqu/n[/face]<br /><br />3. In other stems ending wil be -[face=SPIonic]a[/face] or none. So [face=SPIonic]dai/mwn[/face] ([face=SPIonic]daimon[/face]-) is [face=SPIonic]dai/mona[/face] and [face=SPIonic]ai)w/n[/face] is [face=SPIonic]ai)w~na[/face]<br /><br />So everything depends on the stem