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Questions

Postby Nooj » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:51 pm

ego scio me liberum factum, ex quo suum diem obiit ille, qui verum proverbium fecerat, aut regem aut fatuum nasci oportere.

I know that I was made free, ever since that man died on his own day, the man who made this true proverb: that one should be born either a king or a fool.

ex quo = ex quo tempore?
aut regem aut fatuum nasci oportere = could 'regem' and 'fatuum' be taken as the subjects of nasci, e.g. 'that a king or fool should be born'?
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Re: Questions

Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:47 pm

Nooj wrote:ex quo = ex quo tempore?
Yes. Ità est. "ex quo (scilicet tempore)" secundum L&S.
could 'regem' and 'fatuum' be taken as the subjects of nasci
Sure. Oportet with subject accusative. Iterùm. "Oportet" cum subjecto accusativo.

"who had made the saying true" "who had fulfilled the saying"
suum diem obiit = "he went to meet his [appointed] day" = "he died"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Questions

Postby Nooj » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:28 am

tibi gratias.

1) How would you write 'the youngest of --- children?' in classical Latin? Just a plain iuvenissimus, -a with partitive genitive?

2) How could I improve this?

It is an established truth that where the press is free, the people are free, and that, where freedom of the press is not known, the people are the slaves of depotism.

satis veroque constat, ubi media libera sit, populus etiam liber sint atque ubi libertas mediae non nota sit, populus servi tyrannorum sint.
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Re: Questions

Postby ptolemyauletes » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:45 am

My suggestion would be
'Charles, the youngest of four children'
'Carolus, ex quattuor liberis natu minimus'
'Charles, out of four children the least by birth.'


If I might also make a suggestion about your quote about the press, constat is usually followed by accusative infinitive construction. Hence, 'populum etiam liberum esse'
I am also not sure about ubi needing a subjunctive here. HAlf asleep... hope this makes some sense
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Re: Questions

Postby adrianus » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:54 am

Also // etiam "It is an established truth that" "Non disputandum est" "Indubitabile est" "De quo disputari non potest"
"freedom of the press" "rei librariae libertas" (http://facweb.furman.edu/~dmorgan/lexicon/silva.htm)
If you use "constat" without an accusative infinitive as you did (with a comma or colon), Nooj, better to say, I think, "populus liberi sunt". And, as ptolemyauletes says, why use the subjunctive? Also, best to avoid word repetition, I think.
Si "constat" sine accusativo infinitivo at cum commâ vel colo scibis, Nooj, "liberi" pluraliter utere praeferendum est, ut opinor. Demagìs, ut dicit ptolemyauletes, cur subjunctivo modo uteris? Etiam, melius est ut repetitionem verborum fugis, puto.

"Hoc satis veróque constat: ubi rei librariae libertas adest, liberi sunt populus, ubi abest, servi tyrannorum."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Questions

Postby Nooj » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:31 pm

And, as ptolemyauletes says, why use the subjunctive?
for an indirect question...
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Re: Questions

Postby ptolemyauletes » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:07 pm

Nooj,
That would be true if this were an indirect question, but it is not. There is no original question here. This is indirect statement.
When the press are free, the people are free.
Not - When are the press free, are the people free?
This is in fact a general condition, best with 'si' and an indicative verb, but ubi or cum (with subjunctive) could also do the job.
Heck an ablative absolute could also work - satis vero constat, media libera, populum liberum, absente, populum servos tyrannorum esse - or something like that.
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Re: Questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:27 pm

You would still need the subjunctive with ubi because it's part of indirect discourse, right?
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Re: Questions

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:28 am

Me, I don't think so, modus.irrealis. It's not a spoken clause in ptolemyauletes' sentence. In my sentence (after the colon), it's a direct statement, practically an independent sentence, still not spoken. Possibly, you are thinking about "constat" like "it is stated".
Id non credo, modus.irrrealis. In sententiâ de ptolemyauletes, clausula non locuta est; post colon in illâ mei, paenè sententia independens, etiam non locuta. Fortassè, constare ut asserere verbum habes.

"satis vero" ("sufficiently truely") is less than absolute, it seems to me, but "satis veróque" ("sufficiently and truely") is absolute.
Alterum minùs quàm absolutum est, alterum absolutum, ut mihi videtur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Questions

Postby Nooj » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:40 am

ptolemyauletes wrote:My suggestion would be
'Charles, the youngest of four children'
'Carolus, ex quattuor liberis natu minimus'
'Charles, out of four children the least by birth.'
Oh that's fantastic, thank you.
That would be true if this were an indirect question, but it is not. There is no original question here. This is indirect statement.
Hm, yes I see that now.
Last edited by Nooj on Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:44 am

Oh, sorry -- I wasn't very explicit in what I wanted to ask. I didn't mean in your translation or ptolemyauletes', but rather if it were still in indirect discourse: satis constat, ubi media libera sint, populum liberum esse... You would need the subjunctive in this construction, right?
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Re: Questions

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:40 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:...satis constat, ubi media libera sint, populum liberum esse... You would need the subjunctive in this construction, right?

An honest answer is, I don't know for sure. Obviously, I'm no expert, but I suspect not. Check out A&G, §582a.
Responsum honestum est hoc: pro certo nescio. Quod peritus non sum planum est. Hoc autem apud A&G lego et usum subjunctivi modi dubito.

A&G, §582a wrote:"Ubi tyrannus est, ibi non vitiosam, sed dicendum est plane nullam esse rem publicam" ([Cicero] Rep. iii 43), "where there is a tyrant, it must be said, not that the commonwealth is evil, but that it does not exist at all."

Nota benè: "Where there is freedom of the press, it is an established truth that the people are free".

Non rectè dicitur latinè "media" pro "media" anglicé, puto.
"Media" is not the word in Latin, I think, for "res pressoria" "instrumenta communicationis", "res libraria".
(Vide http://facweb.furman.edu/~dmorgan/lexicon/silva.htm)

Hoc oblitus sum et denuò inveni.
Quintilianus, De institutione oratoria, liber tertius, caput secundum. wrote:Ratio autem est, quâ id, quod factum esse constat, defenditur. Et cur non utamur eodem, quo sunt usi fere omnes, exemplo? Orestes matrem occidit: hoc constat.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:49 am

That's an interesting example because I can't really see the reason for the indicative with reference to section 583. Perhaps it falls under being "merely explanatory" as the "ubi"-clause is explaining what "ibi" refers to.
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Re: Questions

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:59 am

Also see A&G §593a on use of the indicative in dependent clauses.
De usu modi indicativi in clausulâ dependente, vide etiam paragraphum quingentos nonaginta tres et a, in A&G.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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