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plus

Postby little flower » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:11 pm

hi again
is this sentence correct,(adler ex 36)

plura illorum quam horum lavat.
he washes more of the one than of the other.

should it be plurium? thanks.

little flower.
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Re: plus

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:11 am

It needs to be the accusative plura because it's the direct object of lavat. So here, plus is pretty much acting as a noun.
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Re: plus

Postby adrianus » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:25 am

Secundum Adler (Lesson 23, p.105 // lectio seu praeceptum vicesimum tertium, pagina centum quinque)

He washes more of the one (thing) than the other (thing) = Plus ex altero quàm ex altero lavat. [vel] Plus ex uno quàm ex illo.
He washes more of the one than the other = Plus/plures/plura ex alteris quàm ex alteris lavat. [vel] Plus/plures/plura ex unis quàm ex illis lavat. [Nota:"plus ex alteris" sensum abstractum habet, "plures ex alteris" plures res generis masculini vel feminini significat, "plura ex alteris" plures res neutrius generis indicat.]
He washes more of this (thing) than of that (thing) = Plus hujusce quam illius lavat. [vel] Plus ex hôc quàm ex illo lavat.
He washes more (things) of these than of those = Plus horum quàm illorum lavat. [vel] Plures (seu plura) ex his quàm ex illis lavat.

Either "ex" or "de" is OK. // Sive "ex" sive "de", nihil/haud refert.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: plus

Postby adrianus » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:11 pm

I didn't check Exercise 36. I had a look just now and I see you left out a qualifying question.
Exercitationem in dubium (tricesimam sextam) non examinavi. Eâ modò examinatâ, te quaestionem adjicientem omisisse annoto.
Does your brother wash as many shirts as stockings?—He washes more of the one than the other.

Frater tuus, lavatne tot indusia quot tibialia? [seu] tàm multa indusia quàm tibialia?
Plura de unis quàm de alteris lavat.
["He washes more of one than the other."—which is ambiguous as to which one, I believe // quod ambiguum est quoad utrum, ut credo.]

Lavatne frater tuus tot camisias quot tibialia?
Plus horum quàm illarum lavat.
= He washes more of the latter than the former.
Plus illarum quàm horum lavat. = He washes more of the former than the latter.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: plus

Postby Interaxus » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:34 pm

Adrianus:

As usual, I admire and enjoy your bilingual examples immensely. But I have a quick question ...

The Adler Key gives:

Plura illorum quam horum (de unis quam de alteris) lavat.

Is ‘plura’ better than ‘plus’ (which you use in your last two examples) in this connection? In other words, is ‘plura’ more ‘countable’ than ‘plus’ (many/much, etc)? Or is there not necessarily any distinction between them?

Cheers,
Int
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Re: plus

Postby adrianus » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:56 am

Maybe. It's funny, though, thesaurus. I was trying to be consistent with Adler's usage (ignoring all else). He himself writes (p.105) this:
Fortassè. Mirum autem est, thesaure. Cum usu apud Adler convenire volui (opinionibus aliis abditis). Ille ipse scribit haec:

1. More bread, water, wine (not countable) = Plus panis, aquae, vini
2. More men (countable) = Plus hominum, plures homines
3. More letters (countable) = Plus epistolarum, plures epistolae
4. More goblets (countable) = Plus poculorum, plura pocula.
5. More of these than of those = Plus horum quam illorum // Plus (plures, plura) ex (de) his quam ex (de) illis.
6. I have more books than letters = Sunt mihi plures librorum quam quot epistolarum [which I read as somehow being affected by the "quot",— "I have a greater number of books than what number of letters." Quod per "quot" adjectivum affectum esse putavi]
7. Have you more books than I? (p.107) = Tenesne tu plus librorum quam ego? Suntne tibi plures librorum quam mihi? [Possibly no difference here? Nullum discrimen hîc video, nisi "Have you a greater number of books than the number I have?"]

Note the distinctions 1-5 as pretty clear. Discrimina primum ad quintum ut benè clara nota.

Where is the key, by the way? Obiter, ubi est clavis de qua loqueris?
Last edited by adrianus on Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: plus

Postby Interaxus » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:23 am

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Re: plus

Postby adrianus » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:15 am

Thanks, thesaure. Gratias tibi ago, thesaure.
I guess he's saying that in response to "tot" (so many) "quot" (how many), it must always then be "plures/plura" (severally more) with and without the genitive case. That's useful. Again thanks.
Reor eum hîc dicere hoc. Ad adjectiva indeclinabilia in respondendo, semper erit aut "plures" aut "plura" utrum praecedat substantivum genetivo casu. Opus est. Iterum tibi devinctus sum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: plus

Postby ptolemyauletes » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:03 pm

What a great resource! Thanks!
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