Question

[modus.irrealis]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the following hymn:

Ἡ ἀπόῤῥητος Λόγου Θεοῦ κατάβασις, ὅπερ Χριστὸς αὐτός ἐστι, Θεὸς καὶ ἄνθρωπος, τὸ Θεὸς οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν εἶναι ἡγησάμενος, ἐν τῷ μορφοῦσθαι δοῦλον δεικνύει τοῖς Μαθηταῖς· ἐνδόξως γὰρ δεδόξασται.

It starts off "the ineffable descent of the Word of God" and I'm guessing ὅπερ refers back to λόγου despite being neuter, but what does the τὸ go with? At first I thought it goes with εἶναι but as far as I know ἡγοῦμαι does't work that way. And why is Θεός nominative here? And what does the descent, if κατάβασις is in fact the subject of δεικνύει show the disciples?

Also with this hymn:

Διακονῆσαι αὐτὸς ἐλήλυθα, οὗ τὴν μορφὴν ὁ πλαστουργὸς ἑκὼν περίκειμαι, τῷ πτωχεύσαντι Ἀδὰμ ὁ πλουτῶν θεότητι, θεῖναι ἐμήν τε αὐτοῦ ψυχὴν ἀντίλυτρον ὁ ἀπαθὴς θεότητι.

The τε there at the end is misplaced, right? And it's confusing me. Does this really mean "have come ... to set mine and his soul as ransom" which doesn't seem quite right. Or is the word order more scrambled and it's "to set my soul as ransom of (=for) him", which now that I think of it seems more likely?

[IreneY]

Got the answer to one question. I'll stare blankly on my screen again after the weekend trying to figure the other ones too (though you really shouldn't hold your breath).

Quite a lot of googling different things brought me to a result that made some things clear. Namely, some comments on Paul's epistle to Philippians.
I quote the actual passage from Ph 2: 5-8 (from myriobiblos)

5 τοῦτο φρονείσθω ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ, 7 ἀλλ' ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσε μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος, 8 καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ

After this find, I think you'll agree, things become more clear. "το είναι Θεός ουχ αρπαγμόν (εστί) ηγησάμενος" ; that's how I read this phrase.

I am not sure exactly what Jesus shows the disciples but maybe humility, by taking the from of a slave(? "slave" is probably not the right translation here but I don't know the right ecclesiastical term in English so I thought I'd just point out which word I am talking about)

That's all I could do. Not sure about my reading of the whole thing but maybe the quote will help

[modus.irrealis]

Thank you. That solves it. I'm noticing the word order can be very ... "poetic" but I didn't think of moving εῑναι up.

And the usual translation I've seen for δοῦλος is "servant" -- I dont' think people would take it well if "slave" were used.

[IreneY]

Servant! Right! I did know that. Blame it on my brain getting (once again) completely and utterly stuck. Sorry about that

Note: Found this translation (myriobiblos again) of the second passage in modern Greek. Don't know how accurate it is but maybe it can help?

Ἐγώ, ὁ τέλειος Θεός, ἔχω ἔλθει στὴ γῆ γιὰ νὰ ὑπηρετήσω αὐτόν, τοῦ ὁποίου τὴ μορφὴ φέρω ὡς Πλαστουργὸς μὲ τὴ θέλησή μου, δηλαδὴ τὴ μορφὴ τοῦ Ἀδάμ, ὁ ὁποῖος μὲ τὴ πτώση τοῦ πτώχευσε ἀπὸ τὰ θεῖα του χαρίσματα. Παρόλο ποὺ εἶμαι ἀπαθὴς Θεός, ἦλθα γιὰ νὰ προσφέρω τὴ ζωή μου ὡς λύτρο γιὰ τὴν ἀπελευθέρωση τοῦ παραβάτη.

First read (glance really) seems to indicate the translator ignores "te"

[modus.irrealis]

It's almost more paraphrase (and amplification) than translation. I think the τε corresponds to the period . So they took it as θεῖναι τε ἐμὴν... which I think makes the most sense.

And it looks like myriobiblos is more useful than I knew. But it's oddly not showing up in google unless I explicitly add site:myriobiblos.gr. Thanks again.

[modus.irrealis]

I've run into some more difficulties. First, with

Τὴν συναγωγὴν συκῆν Χριστὸς Ἑβραίων, καρπῶν ἄμοιρον πνευματικῶν εἰκάζων, ἀρᾷ ξηραίνει·

Obviously the word order is scrambled, so is it: Χριστὸς τὴν συναγωγὴν Ἑβραίων, (αυτὴν) συκῆν ἄμοιρον καρπῶν πνευματικῶν (εἶναι) εἰκάζων, ἀρᾷ ξηραίνει? But I'm not sure that makes the best sense.

--

I just want to double-check my translation of the next one:

Ἔφριξε παίδων εὐαγῶν τὸ ὁμόστολον ψυχῆς ἄσπιλον σῶμα καὶ εἶξε τὸ τραφὲν ἐν ἀπείρῳ ὕλῃ ἀκάματον πῦρ. Ἀειζώου δὲ ἐκμαρανθείσης φλογός, διαιωνίζων ὕμνος ἀνεμέλπετο·

The stainless body of the pure children together with their soul shuddered and withdrew from the tireless fire that is nourish by limitless fuel. And when the ever-living flame had withered away, the perpetual hymn was raised:

--

Finally, this next one I have no idea, and I'm hoping it's because it's late and I need to get some sleep, but anyway, it's:

Τάξεως ἔμπαλιν ὑμῖν ἐθνικῆς ἔστω τὸ κράτος ὁμογενῶν· οὐ κλῆρος γὰρ ἐμός, τυραννὶς δέ, γνώμη αὐθαίρετος.

I'm pretty sure the first part says something like "let the power of ?? be against you" but I don't see how. The second part is meaningless to me. If it helps the rest of the hymn is Ὁ οὖν πρόκριτος ἐν ὑμῖν εἶναι θέλων τῶν ἄλλων ἔστω πάντων ἐσχατώτερος· καὶ Κύριον γινώσκοντες με, ὑμνεῖτε καὶ ὑπερψοῦτε εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰῶνας.

Any help would me much appreciated.

[modus.irrealis]

Adding a couple more questions:

In the following, what does the ταῖς ... ἡδοναῖς go with?

Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·

I kind of want to take it with κεκαθαρμέναις but in addition to the distance the meaning would have to be "cleansed of the pleasures of life" but wouldn't this need the genitive or a preposition like ἀπό? Can it be taken with συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν so something like "be crucified and die together with the pleasures of life". It's similar to ideas in the Epistle to the Galatians, e.g. 6:14 δι’ οὗ [Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ] ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ, which I don't completely get, or maybe 5:24 οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν σὺν τοῖς παθήμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις.

--

What is προφήτην doing in the following:

Πῶς τῶν ῥημάτων μου ἀμνημονεῖτε, ὧν πάλαι εἶπον ὑμῖν, ὅτι προφήτην πάντα οὐ γέγραπται, εἰ μὴ ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἀποκτανθῆναι;

I think the meaning is clear -- I understand something like "nothing has been written in the prophets if not that [I will] be killed in Jerusalem ... Actually, now that I'm puzzling over who the subject of ἀποκτανθῆναι is, I'm thinking, maybe it's προφήτην so it would be "nothing has been written, if not that a prophet will be killed in Jerusalem"?

[IreneY]

Took my sweet time didn't I? Sorry about that!

OK first: Fig tree question I think you are right. That's how I read it and this essay (?) seems to agree with us

The second one I have no collaborative evidence but I think you are right. Koine Greek is not my specialty though so you probably know best.

Third one I really can't tell. It confuses me a lot I must say so i will have to work on it a bit.

As for "Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·" : Could it be the object of νεκρωθωμεν? That's how I read it at least.

As for the last one: I think it refers to the following quote by Luke (13:33) " 33 πλὴν δεῖ με σήμερον καὶ αὔριον καὶ τῇ ἐχομένῃ πορεύεσθαι, ὅτι οὐκ ἐνδέχεται προφήτην ἀπολέσθαι ἔξω Ἱερουσαλήμ." Haven't checked its syntactical role though if that's what you are asking.

[modus.irrealis]

Thanks again. And this is all from the services for Holy Week, and that's a year or so away, so I've got all the time in the world and I'm taking it easy with this. (You know, when I was a kid, I used to call it "Big Week" ).

I'll be back soon with an actual response to your points.

[modus.irrealis]

OK first: Fig tree question I think you are right. That's how I read it and this essay (?) seems to agree with us

Thanks for the link. I was kind of hoping to be wrong...

Third one I really can't tell. It confuses me a lot I must say so i will have to work on it a bit.

I still can't figure anything out with this one.

As for "Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·" : Could it be the object of νεκρωθωμεν? That's how I read it at least.

So taking νεκρωθῶμεν with a (quasi)active sense?

Edit: I'm not quite sure why I said it this way, but I meant to say, taking νεκρωθῶμεν as something like "dying to the pleasures of life"?

As for the last one: I think it refers to the following quote by Luke (13:33) " 33 πλὴν δεῖ με σήμερον καὶ αὔριον καὶ τῇ ἐχομένῃ πορεύεσθαι, ὅτι οὐκ ἐνδέχεται προφήτην ἀπολέσθαι ἔξω Ἱερουσαλήμ." Haven't checked its syntactical role though if that's what you are asking.

Yeah, it was the syntax there that got me confused, but I now think my mistake was taking πάντα to be neuter -- it makes much better sense to read it as masculine and then it's just "is it not written that every prophet must be killed [nowhere] except in Jerusalem?" where it's a question that's being quoted not a statement.

[IreneY]

Hi! About that third one. It's an off-chance but is it included here? http://www.ccel.org/ccel/brownlie/greek ... epage.html
As for "νεκρωθῶμεν" that's exactly what I mean. Kind of like "dead to the world" or something. I think you figured the rest out yourself so you don't need my paltry efforts to help out a bit I do want to crack that third one out though, it's driving me crazy!

P.S. Big Week eh? That's a good one. Have you tried actually explaining the idea of "Big/Holy Monday" etc to people? Have of them look at me strange and the others sort of get what I'm talking about (forget "Big Saturday"! That's too strange )

[modus.irrealis]

Hi! About that third one. It's an off-chance but is it included here? http://www.ccel.org/ccel/brownlie/greek ... epage.html
As for "νεκρωθῶμεν" that's exactly what I mean. Kind of like "dead to the world" or something. I think you figured the rest out yourself so you don't need my paltry efforts to help out a bit I do want to crack that third one out though, it's driving me crazy!

Thanks for the link, but unfortunately it's not there. Looking more carefully at the google results, there does seem to be a version with γνώμῃ and not γνώμη like I had, so that may have been a typo. Hopefully that helps you out.

P.S. Big Week eh? That's a good one. Have you tried actually explaining the idea of "Big/Holy Monday" etc to people? Have of them look at me strange and the others sort of get what I'm talking about (forget "Big Saturday"! That's too strange )

No ... but now I'm wondering, what's the strange part?

[IreneY]

Hey there! About the "Big Week". Apparently very few people thing of the Holy Week as well, a holy week. Holy Friday yes, the rest of the days no, not really. I mean, sure, they are holy but they don't think of them as so. Don't know if I'm making any sense here.


As for that text we were talking about: I had an idea. I haven't been able to think it through yet but I thought I'd share what I thought.

How about "Let your "state" of the omogenon (?) be the opposite of the order of the heathens? As in our leaders are the "least" (hockey doesn't help thinking linguistics you know) and not considered (or consider themselves) the most important people (as they do in the social order of the "heathens")

[modus.irrealis]

Hey there! About the "Big Week". Apparently very few people thing of the Holy Week as well, a holy week. Holy Friday yes, the rest of the days no, not really. I mean, sure, they are holy but they don't think of them as so. Don't know if I'm making any sense here.

Pff. I remember being forced to fast and go to church, so it was very a "churchy" week for me. (Although, I do believe I enjoyed walking under the epitafio on Friday and the firecrackers on Saturday night .)

How about "Let your "state" of the omogenon (?) be the opposite of the order of the heathens? As in our leaders are the "least" (hockey doesn't help thinking linguistics you know) and not considered (or consider themselves) the most important people (as they do in the social order of the "heathens")

I like that -- it makes more sense to take τάξις that way than with the militaristic meaning I was thinking, since it goes with what comes later. I doubt ομογενής refers to the Jewish diaspora, but I can see it being a contrast to the gentiles and referring to the Jewish people as a whole... maybe. I still don't get the οὐ κλῆρος γὰρ ἐμός, τυραννὶς δέ, γνώμη αὐθαίρετος part though, although perhaps κλῆρος here means that the heathen's order is not Christ's inheritance, but that it's "voluntary tyranny"?? Or perhaps "arbitrary tyranny"?

And hockey?! You also getting into the Stanley Cup finals??

[IreneY]

Have to think about it a bit longer. Question (since I am woefully inadequate in some aspects of Koine): Can κλήρος mean anything else than what it usuallly means? Just to cover all my basis and not try for a meaning that could be wrong. About αυθαίρετος now; I think it may actually have the meaning of "self-chosen" not as "voluntarily" chosen but maybe "arbitrary whatever"? Could be that modern Greek gets in the way though

As for hockey yes, I'm a fan. Was even before I moved and let me tell you, hunting for hockey games on sat TV is no fun! One of the nice things about moving to the US is I can watch hockey to my heart's content. I have to say that I was rather impartial when back home, favouring the Red Wings only because their colours are the same as Olympiakos' but now that I am in Michigan I'm definitely supporting them (nothing whatsoever to do with my husband being a HUGE supporter of them at all )

P.S. Going under Epitaphios was fun!! (Anastasi still is Fun story: None of my grandpas was very religious. My mom's dad however was really annoyed by the culinary restrictions of lent. Therefore, when he found out about Μικρή Ανάσταση, he decided that since Christ had already risen he didn't have to fast anymore! According to my mom he drove my grandma crazy because he would start singing, drinking and grilling meat outside just after noon ! )

[modus.irrealis]

Have to think about it a bit longer. Question (since I am woefully inadequate in some aspects of Koine): Can κλήρος mean anything else than what it usuallly means? Just to cover all my basis and not try for a meaning that could be wrong. About αυθαίρετος now; I think it may actually have the meaning of "self-chosen" not as "voluntarily" chosen but maybe "arbitrary whatever"? Could be that modern Greek gets in the way though

I don't know, but that's something I should check. Next chance I get, I'll pass by my library, where I believe they have a dictionary for the Greek of the Roman and Byzantine periods.

As for hockey yes, I'm a fan. Was even before I moved and let me tell you, hunting for hockey games on sat TV is no fun! One of the nice things about moving to the US is I can watch hockey to my heart's content. I have to say that I was rather impartial when back home, favouring the Red Wings only because their colours are the same as Olympiakos' but now that I am in Michigan I'm definitely supporting them (nothing whatsoever to do with my husband being a HUGE supporter of them at all )

That I didn't know. I'm supporting Detroit too -- actually I'm unsupporting Pittsburgh .

P.S. Going under Epitaphios was fun!! (Anastasi still is Fun story: None of my grandpas was very religious. My mom's dad however was really annoyed by the culinary restrictions of lent. Therefore, when he found out about Μικρή Ανάσταση, he decided that since Christ had already risen he didn't have to fast anymore! According to my mom he drove my grandma crazy because he would start singing, drinking and grilling meat outside just after noon ! )