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practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sun May 03, 2009 11:20 am

The sentence and context:

ἐνθάδε οἱ μὲν καλοὶ καὶ ἀγαθοὶ τὴν πατρίδα βλάπτειν καὶ πλοῦτον λαμβάνειν οὐκ ἤθελον, ἀλλὰ μὴ ἀδικεῖσται ὐπὸ τῶν πονηπῶν ἐβούλοντο· τοῖς δὲ πονηποῖς, οἳ ἀεὶ ἀπρχῆς τε καὶ πλούτου ἐπεθύμουν...

My attempt:

Here, good and valorous men were unwilling to harm the fatherland and take wealth, but rather wanted to not be harmed by base men; but it was then possible for base men, who always desired both power and wealth...

I was taught that a μέν could not go on its own, and needed a δέ, but there isn't one in the first sentence. Hm...
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Re: practice questions

Postby benissimus » Sun May 03, 2009 12:11 pm

Nooj wrote:ἐνθάδε οἱ μὲν καλοὶ καὶ ἀγαθοὶ τὴν πατρίδα βλάπτειν καὶ πλοῦτον λαμβάνειν οὐκ ἤθελον, ἀλλὰ μὴ ἀδικεῖσται ὐπὸ τῶν πονηπῶν ἐβούλοντο· τοῖς δὲ πονηποῖς, οἳ ἀεὶ ἀπρχῆς τε καὶ πλούτου ἐπεθύμουν...

My attempt:

Here, good and valorous men were unwilling to harm the fatherland and take wealth, but rather wanted to not be harmed by base men; but it was then possible for base men, who always desired both power and wealth...

I was taught that a μέν could not go on its own, and needed a δέ, but there isn't one in the first sentence. Hm...

I didn't notice any errors, although I don't see where you are getting "it was then possible" (presumably after the dot-dot-dot). If there is a "then" in the second part of your sentence, then ἐνθάδε probably means something like "now" (since they are in adversative clauses).

It looks like τοῖς δὲ πονηροῖς contains the δέ that you are looking for. Also, this might just be a transliteration problem, but you are writing both your rhos and pis with the symbol for pi (π, as in *πονηπῶν). Hopefully you are making the distinction in your head that your fingers are not :)
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sun May 03, 2009 12:26 pm

benissimus wrote:I didn't notice any errors, although I don't see where you are getting "it was then possible" (presumably after the dot-dot-dot).
If there is a "then" in the second part of your sentence, then ἐνθάδε probably means something like "now" (since they are in adversative clauses).


Yeah, there was an ἐξῆν further along in the passage, as well as a τότε. The book never told me about adversative clauses, guess they just assumed I'd realise it. ἐνθάδε was given as here/there, I didn't think of it in the temporal sense. Thanks!
It looks like τοῖς δὲ πονηροῖς contains the δέ that you are looking for.
Wow, I didn't know δέ could come such a long way away and the semicolon in between threw me off.
Also, this might just be a transliteration problem, but you are writing both your rhos and pis with the symbol for pi (π, as in *πονηπῶν). Hopefully you are making the distinction in your head that your fingers are not :)
Woops! :oops:
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more questions

Postby Nooj » Sun May 03, 2009 1:52 pm

1) In a sentence like this:

As a result of doing wrong but seeming virtuous, the unjust man wins for himself wealth and honour.

I translated it something like:

ἐκ τοῦ μὲν ἀδικεῖν δοκείν τοῦ δὲ δοκείν τὸν καλὸν, ὁ ἄδικος καὶ τὸν πλοῦτον καὶ τὴν τιμὴν φὲρεται.

And I was told I got the τὸν καλὸν wrong, and it had to be nominative...I didn't quite understand, doesn't δοκείν take an object?

2)

The men have breastplates and shields, but are not brave.

τοῖς ἄνδρασι θύρακες καὶ ἀσπίδες εὶσιν ἀλλά οὐκ ἀγαθοὶ

Did I do the right thing in putting ἀγαθός into nominative here? Should it be dative?
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Re: more questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun May 03, 2009 2:36 pm

Nooj wrote:1) In a sentence like this:

As a result of doing wrong but seeming virtuous, the unjust man wins for himself wealth and honour.

I translated it something like:

ἐκ τοῦ μὲν ἀδικεῖν δοκείν τοῦ δὲ δοκείν τὸν καλὸν, ὁ ἄδικος καὶ τὸν πλοῦτον καὶ τὴν τιμὴν φὲρεται.

And I was told I got the τὸν καλὸν wrong, and it had to be nominative...I didn't quite understand, doesn't δοκείν take an object?

δοκεῖν in this construction takes an infinitive -- in this case you have εἶναι (which can be dropped) so καλός is a predicate adjective, and in general, these will agree with the case of the noun they refer to, even if that might contradict the usual rules. So here καλός refers to ὁ ἄδικος and so stays in the nominative. (That doesn't sound to clear but as an other example, "of those who seem wise" is "τῶν δοκούντων σοφῶν εἶναι".)

You have an extra δοκεῖν by mistake there. Also, I'm not sure the μεν...δε... construction works there. I think just δέ or ἀλλά would work.

The men have breastplates and shields, but are not brave.

τοῖς ἄνδρασι θύρακες καὶ ἀσπίδες εὶσιν ἀλλά οὐκ ἀγαθοὶ

Did I do the right thing in putting ἀγαθός into nominative here? Should it be dative?

The dative wouldn't work, but with the nominative, at least for me, I read the sentence as saying the breastplates and shields aren't good. I think it'd be better to use ἔχω in this case.
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Re: more questions

Postby Nooj » Sun May 03, 2009 2:45 pm

δοκεῖν in this construction takes an infinitive -- in this case you have εἶναι (which can be dropped) so καλός is a predicate adjective, and in general, these will agree with the case of the noun they refer to, even if that might contradict the usual rules. So here καλός refers to ὁ ἄδικος and so stays in the nominative. (That doesn't sound to clear but as an other example, "of those who seem wise" is "τῶν δοκούντων σοφῶν εἶναι".)
I think I understand how the sentence works when it's written like:

[The unjust man] as a result of doing wrong but seeming virtuous, wins for himself wealth and honour.

The dative wouldn't work, but with the nominative, at least for me, I read the sentence as saying the breastplates and shields aren't good. I think it'd be better to use ἔχω in this case.
The source of my confusion here was that I had some trouble getting my head around how ἐιμί worked (like in the first sentence), whether the ἀγαθός had to agree with the subject...

And thank you, you've cleared up everything. :)
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Fri May 22, 2009 5:08 pm

This website gives the Septuagint of Joshua 6:17 as:

καὶ ἔσται εἶπεν ἡ πρὸς πόλις αὐτὸν ἀνάθεμα

Whereas other websites like this one have:

καὶ ἔσται ἡ πόλις ἀνάϑεμα

Which makes more sense to me. How does the first sentence work?
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat May 23, 2009 12:02 am

There's something weird (programming bug?) going on with the first site -- it's mixing in verses from Judges. If you take out every second word you get

καὶ εἶπε πρὸς αὐτὸν Γεδεών· εἰ δὴ εὗρον ἔλεος ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖς σου καὶ ποιήσεις μοι σήμερον πᾶν ὅ,τι ἐλάλησας μετ᾿ ἐμοῦ

which is Judges 6:17.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sat May 23, 2009 4:11 am

Great, I thought that was just me and my epic failing at Greek.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sat May 30, 2009 7:23 pm

οἱ ἐπὶ τῇ θαλάττῃ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα εὖ ἔπραττον, κακῶς δὲ ἔπασχον ὑπό τινων τῶν πολεμίων οἲ τὴν χώραν ἀεὶ ἔφερον καὶ ἦγον.

On one hand, those near the sea were doing well in the other things but they were suffering badly from some of the enemy who were plundering the land.

Could someone just give this a one-over?
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun May 31, 2009 2:00 am

You seem to have missed the ἀεί which gives the sentence, in my opinion, a general significance, so "... did well ... suffered ... who always plundered ..."
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sun May 31, 2009 7:27 am

oy vey. I blame it on my lack of coffee. Thank you for the correction!
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:48 pm

I hope I'm not wearing out your patience, but my textbook doesn't seem to explain this very well. I'm just trying to see if my examples are correct.
When contrasted with ἐκεῖνος, οὗτος means the latter vs. the former.

So ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος τὰδε εἶπε, ἐκεῖνα ἠ δὲ τὰδε λέγει means 'the latter said these things, the former says...'?

I don't get the reason why ἐκεῖνος (denoting something more distant) means 'the former' whereas οὗτοs (something nearer) means the latter. It seems sort of counter-intuitive to me.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Damoetas » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:10 am

Nooj wrote:I hope I'm not wearing out your patience, but my textbook doesn't seem to explain this very well.


I don't know if everyone else's patience is worn out, but I don't mind jumping in! Part of the confusion might be about the words "the former" and "the latter" themselves, because they aren't used much in English anymore; I always have to pause and think for a second whenever I encounter them. When you list two things and then refer back to them, the first thing is what we call "the former" in English; you call it ἐκεῖνος in Greek because it's more distant from you in time (or space on the page). The second thing is "the latter," and it's οὗτος in Greek because it's nearer to you. They key is that they're nearer or more distant from the perspective of looking back at them. For example:

Σωκράτης καὶ Πλάτων εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν· ἐκεῖνος μὲν γέρων ἦν, οὗτος δὲ νεανίας.
"Socrates and Plato came into the agora; the former was an old man, the latter was young."

Smyth (1261) points out that this is not really a strict rule; sometimes ἐκεῖνος refers to the second of the two things, so you have to pay close attention and use common sense in figuring it out.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:53 pm

I'm sorry for not replying, but I've been away from the computer for a looong while and only recently got back. Your explanation was invaluable to me Damoetas! I don't know the expression for thank you in Greek yet, but that's what I'd be saying if I knew it. :)

Moooore questions!

My textbook states:

Subject of Infinitive. When the subject of the action expressed by the infinitive is expressed in Greek, it is normally in the accusative case unless it is the same person or thing as the subject of the finite verb (there are further exceptions to be learned later).


And it gives an example of the subject in accusative case, like:
δεῖ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους πόνους φέρειν
It is necessary for men to endure toil.

My question is, what would be an example of a subject not being in the accusative case (in other words, the same person being the subject of the finite verb?). Something like 'the men want themselves to endure toil' with themselves/ἀυτοί in some case other than accusative?

A second question, it gives another sentence that is giving me headaches:

ἐκ τοῦ τὸν κακὸν ναύτην ἄρχειν.
As a result of the bad sailor's being leader.
(as a result of the fact that the bad sailor is leader)

Now the way I translate infinitives used as substantive nouns is to make the infinitive the subject. So δεῖ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους πόνους φέρειν would be 'to endure the toils is necessary for the men'. But if I try to do that for ἐκ τοῦ τὸν κακὸν ναύτην ἄρχειν, I get 'as a result of being leader for the bad soldier', which seems like rubbish English. But would it be literally correct? Have I got the grammatical conception of it down pat?
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Nooj wrote:My question is, what would be an example of a subject not being in the accusative case (in other words, the same person being the subject of the finite verb?). Something like 'the men want themselves to endure toil' with themselves/ἀυτοί in some case other than accusative?

I'm not really sure what they mean -- do they give any examples? The basic thing is that when the subject of the accusative is the same as the subject of the finite verb, the subject is implied, but when it's explicit, I believe it normally has to be in the accusative. You can read the details from Smyth's grammar at http://artfl.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philo ... monographs. But whatever the case, I'd say it's not a major issue.

There's a separate issue that words like adjectives that modify the subject of the infinitive are normally in the accusative but when that's the same as the subject of the finite verb and is unexpressed, then they'll be in the nominative. So αὐτοί would in fact be in the nominative in your example. But you're using Mastronarde, right? If I remember correctly, he explains this and similar things (usually called attraction) very well.

A second question, it gives another sentence that is giving me headaches:

ἐκ τοῦ τὸν κακὸν ναύτην ἄρχειν.
As a result of the bad sailor's being leader.
(as a result of the fact that the bad sailor is leader)

Now the way I translate infinitives used as substantive nouns is to make the infinitive the subject. So δεῖ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους πόνους φέρειν would be 'to endure the toils is necessary for the men'. But if I try to do that for ἐκ τοῦ τὸν κακὸν ναύτην ἄρχειν, I get 'as a result of being leader for the bad soldier', which seems like rubbish English. But would it be literally correct? Have I got the grammatical conception of it down pat?

I think the problem is rendering the subject of the infinitive using "for", which only really works in certain kinds of sentences, like the impersonal ones with δεῖ, where you can make the infinitive the subject of a verb (and even there, most verbs like that use the dative, e.g. ἔξεστι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πόνους φέρειν, where you get the usual dative ~ "for"). In ἐκ τοῦ... there's nothing for infinitive to be the subject of, so you just need to translate the subject of infinitive as the subject of whatever English form you use to translate the infinitive.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:20 pm

There's a separate issue that words like adjectives that modify the subject of the infinitive are normally in the accusative but when that's the same as the subject of the finite verb and is unexpressed, then they'll be in the nominative. So αὐτοί would in fact be in the nominative in your example. But you're using Mastronarde, right? If I remember correctly, he explains this and similar things (usually called attraction) very well.
Yep, but it's at the end of the book so I had to flip forward to next semester's batch of work to find it:
The subject of an infinitive, when expressed, is normally in the accusative, and so predicate nouns or adjectives are accusative in agreement. But when the subject of the infinitive is the same as the (nominative) subject of the governing verb, the subject of the infinitive is unexpressed and predicate nouns or adjectives are in the nominative by attraction.
Could this be what my passage was talking about, in a round-about way? I think I'll have a talk with my lecturer...thank you for that link by the way, it looks extremely useful.

Okee dokie, now I'm jumping all over the place. I'm reading a book by the name of 'A new short guide to the accentuation of Ancient Greek' by Philomen Probert. He writes:
Notice that the accent marks as printed in our modern texts are always placed, when they occur on a diphthong, over the second element of the diphthong (βασιλεύς, βασιλεῦ). In the case of the circumflex this is rather misleading: the circumflex indicates a high pitch on the first part of the diphthong, although it is written over the second.


I'm struggling to pronounce different parts of the diphthong in different pitches because they mix together in my mind. I think the eu in βασιλεύς is supposed to sound like the English 'feud' with a higher pitch on the second part. So basiliyoOOs...? I was wondering if you knew of any recordings of people attempting to speak in ancient Greek. It's a minor question, but when reading out sentences, I want to say it properly.
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:57 pm

Nooj wrote:
The subject of an infinitive, when expressed, is normally in the accusative, and so predicate nouns or adjectives are accusative in agreement. But when the subject of the infinitive is the same as the (nominative) subject of the governing verb, the subject of the infinitive is unexpressed and predicate nouns or adjectives are in the nominative by attraction.
Could this be what my passage was talking about, in a round-about way?

It would make more sense if he's talking about that -- attraction (and this is only one example of it) is a regular feature of Greek, and kind of odd in that things have the "wrong" case, so it's not something that's obvious when you come across it.

Notice that the accent marks as printed in our modern texts are always placed, when they occur on a diphthong, over the second element of the diphthong (βασιλεύς, βασιλεῦ). In the case of the circumflex this is rather misleading: the circumflex indicates a high pitch on the first part of the diphthong, although it is written over the second.


I'm struggling to pronounce different parts of the diphthong in different pitches because they mix together in my mind. I think the eu in βασιλεύς is supposed to sound like the English 'feud' with a higher pitch on the second part. So basiliyoOOs...? I was wondering if you knew of any recordings of people attempting to speak in ancient Greek. It's a minor question, but when reading out sentences, I want to say it properly.

For recordings, there's a good list at http://new.textkit.com/node/86 of stuff's that available so you might want to check that out.

About ευ though, it's not like "feud" -- this pronunciation is limited to English speakers and is the result of English sound changes (e.g. Germans traditionally pronounce it like the "oy" in "boy" because that's how "eu" is pronounced in German). The classical pronunciation was just ε + [u], which as far as I know doesn't exist at all in English, so I can't give any examples, but it's just a diphthong that starts at ε and ends at [u]. (I don't write υ because υ was like French y except as the second element of diphthongs where it preserved the [u] sound.)

About the accent, the long story has to do with "morae" -- long vowels and diphthongs are considered to have two morae, and the difference between the acute and the circumflex is whether the high-pitch falls on the first mora (acute) or on the second (circumflex). This explains why short vowels only have one kind of accent. In diphthongs like ευ, you have the first mora is ε and the second is [u], so the difference between the two accents is that as you glide from ε to [u], you either start at a high pitch or end at a high pitch. But it basically comes down to εύ having a rising pitch and εῦ having a falling pitch (I believe that's the most common interpretation -- in the absence of recordings it's hard to know precisely what things sounded like and there's disagreement -- I know some sources see the circumflex as a rising-falling pitch).

(I'm not sure how long diphthongs are understood with morae, and how that works with ηυ for example, but there too, rising acute vs. falling circumflex works fine.)
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:28 pm

Χαίρετε φίλοι!

I've tried to translate 'a beautiful work belongs to everyone who hears it'. Is this a close approximation?

ἡ καλὰ ποίησίς ἐστι τὸ μέρος πάντων οἳ αὐτῆς ἤκουσαν.

We're up to participles now and they're rather lovely things. I'm also amused at the 'gentive absolute'. If you had to choose...ablative absolute or genitive absolute? :wink:
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:50 pm

Any tips on learning the imperfect forms of εἶμι? I can get the present conjugation fine, but the imperfect conjugation seems to use multiple stems and odd endings in the singular. In particular these:

ᾖα
ᾔεισθα
ᾔειν

Is there any sort of pattern in these constructions that I've missed?
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:49 pm

Nooj wrote:Χαίρετε φίλοι!

I've tried to translate 'a beautiful work belongs to everyone who hears it'. Is this a close approximation?

ἡ καλὰ ποίησίς ἐστι τὸ μέρος πάντων οἳ αὐτῆς ἤκουσαν.

Grammatically it's fine except that it should be καλὴ. I'm thinking, though, that this is somewhere where you'd use a participle rather than a relative clause, so something like ἐστι παντὸς τοῦ ἀκούοντος αὐτῆς.

We're up to participles now and they're rather lovely things. I'm also amused at the 'gentive absolute'. If you had to choose...ablative absolute or genitive absolute? :wink:

Participles are my favourite part of Greek and I suspect they're a huge part of why people have considered it an elegant language. You know, there's also an accusative absolute in Greek :D.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:54 pm

This is a monster of an adapted passage from Protagoras 324d - 325a that I just cannot for the life of me wrap my head around. I've given it my best shot but...it's ridiculous.

ἔτι λείπεται ἡ ἀπορία ἣν ἀπορεῖς περὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν ἀγαθῶν, τί δήποτε οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ ἀγαθοὶ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς διδάσκουσιν ἃ διδασκάλων ἔχεται καὶ σοφοὺς ποιοῦσιν, ἐκείνην δὲ τὴν ἀρετὴν ἣν αὐτοί ἐισιν ἀγαθοὶ οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν. καὶ πέρι τούτου, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκέτι μῦθόν σοι ἐρῶ ἀλλὰ λόγον. ὧδε γὰρ δεῖ νομίζειν· ἔστιν τι ἓν ἢ, οὐκ ἔστιν οὗ ἀνάγκη πάντας τοὺς πολίτας μετέχειν, εἴπερ μέλλει πόλις εἶναι; ἐν τούτῳ γὰρ αὕτη λύεται ἡ ἀπορία ἣν σὺ ἀπορεῖς ἢ ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἔστιν, τοῦτό τὸ ἓν ἐστιν οὐ τεκτονικὴ οὐδὲ χαλκεία οὐδὲ κεραμεία ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνη καὶ σωφροσύνη καὶ τὸ ὅσιον εἶναι, καὶ συλλήβδην* ἓν αὐτὸ προσαγορεύω εἶναι ἀνδρὸς ἀρετήν.

Still, the difficulty of which you are doubting remains, concerning the good men. Why in the world are good men teaching to their sons these things which fall under the jurisdiction of teachers and making them wise, while they are making their sons better than no one in that wisdom which is...

And concerning this matter, Socrates, I will no longer call it a fable but a story. For it is necessary to think. What is there or what isn't there that all citizens must share in, if in fact it is likely to be a city? For in this matter, this difficulty is released, which you doubt in no other place. For if it exists, that one thing is not carpentry, nor bronzeworking, nor ceramics, but righteousness and moderation and being holy. Taken all together, I call this one thing the virtue of a man.

I don't understand the use of ἀπορεῖς here. Nor do I understand how the bolded section works. That just made me throw my hands up. Please, could someone help?
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Re: practice questions

Postby NateD26 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:16 am

Hi, Nooj.
Perhaps the genitive οὐδενός comes in this context as genitive of worth?

"...yet they (attempt) making (their sons) better in that excellence in which the good men themselves are worth nothing (lit. 'of nothing')."

it seems to work with the suggested solution to Socrates' difficulty
but maybe I'm wrong.

[From Intermediate Liddell-Scott]
1. ἀπορέω + acc. (p.105 I.1.) is to be at a loss, puzzled about something,
in this case "The difficulty which you are puzzled about...still remains."

2. ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ (p.576 II. top left) of manner, in no other way.
so, "For in this matter, this difficulty about which you are puzzled is in no other way than (this) solved."
Nate.
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:38 pm

For οὐδενός, I read it as a genitive of comparison, i.e. οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν = they don't make them better than anyone, which is another possibility.

Also some minor points:
Nooj wrote:καὶ πέρι τούτου, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκέτι μῦθόν σοι ἐρῶ ἀλλὰ λόγον.
And concerning this matter, Socrates, I will no longer call it a fable but a story.

Here the point is that he will no longer speak in myths but on this point will give a logical argument (λόγος).

ὧδε γὰρ δεῖ νομίζειν·
For it is necessary to think.

You missed the ὧδε = "thus, in the following way."

ἔστιν τι ἓν ἢ, οὐκ ἔστιν οὗ ἀνάγκη πάντας τοὺς πολίτας μετέχειν, εἴπερ μέλλει πόλις εἶναι;
What is there or what isn't there that all citizens must share in, if in fact it is likely to be a city?

More literally, "is there some one thing or isn't there that..."

--

NateD26 wrote:2. ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ (p.576 II. top left) of manner, in no other way.
so, "For in this matter, this difficulty about which you are puzzled is in no other way than (this) solved."

I would take the ἤ here as "or" and ἐν τούτῳ as going with λύεται: "for in this is this difficulty about which you are puzzled solved or in no other way."
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Re: practice questions

Postby NateD26 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:59 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:For οὐδενός, I read it as a genitive of comparison, i.e. οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν = they don't make them better than anyone, which is another possibility.

NateD26 wrote:2. ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ (p.576 II. top left) of manner, in no other way.
so, "For in this matter, this difficulty about which you are puzzled is in no other way than (this) solved."

I would take the ἤ here as "or" and ἐν τούτῳ as going with λύεται: "for in this is this difficulty about which you are puzzled solved or in no other way."


Thank you for the correction of ἤ. I was not sure how to translate it.

about οὐδενός, your way of translation makes it clearer. thanks. :)
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:40 pm

I know that was rather a lot to ask of you guys, so thanks very much for the swift replies.

modus.irrealis wrote:For οὐδενός, I read it as a genitive of comparison, i.e. οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν = they don't make them better than anyone, which is another possibility.
Well the thing that really threw me off was ἣν αὐτοί ἐισιν ἀγαθοὶ. I don't understand what an accusative ἣν was doing there, because I can't see a verb that goes with it - is it an accusative of respect? 'in which they themselves are virtuous'?

So Socrates is puzzled why good men are teaching their sons other things that belong to the purview of teachers, but not 'virtue' and Protagoras is...well, I'm not sure how he's addressing Socrates' concerns, but I guess I should read the full context in a book.
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Re: practice questions

Postby modus.irrealis » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:58 pm

Nooj wrote:Well the thing that really threw me off was ἣν αὐτοί ἐισιν ἀγαθοὶ. I don't understand what an accusative ἣν was doing there, because I can't see a verb that goes with it - is it an accusative of respect? 'in which they themselves are virtuous'?

Exactly. I'd say this is pretty common with adjectives like ἀγαθός or σοφός (and their opposites).
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:12 am

Could someone please have a look over this translation? In particular, can you use an articular infinitive in this way?

I think that is the big danger in keeping a diary: you exaggerate everything.

οἶμαι τοῦτο τόν μέγαν κίνδυνον εἶναι τοῦ ἔχειν ἐφημερίδα: ηὔξηκας (perf) πάντα.


.
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Re: practice questions

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:15 am

I think your translation is great; that's how we learned to use the articular infinitive.

A more literal translation may be:

I think/methink this is the great danger of having a diary/war-journal;
(namely) you have exaggerated everything (and thus you are glorified by your own hands).
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:48 pm

NateD26 wrote:I think your translation is great; that's how we learned to use the articular infinitive.

A more literal translation may be:

I think/methink this is the great danger of having a diary/war-journal;
(namely) you have exaggerated everything (and thus you are glorified by your own hands).

Sorry for the confusion, I was actually translating from English into Greek and not the other way around. :oops:
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Re: practice questions

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:57 pm

I apologize then. :)
Just so I would know for my own translations, why have u decided to use the perfect for exaggerate?
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:03 pm

My bad, I should have been clearer.
Just so I would know for my own translations, why have u decided to use the perfect for exaggerate?
Well I couldn't think of another aspect to go along with it. My textbook says that the perfect aspect describes a completed action with a continuing result, which seemed to me adequate in this instance.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:21 am

Not really a question, but something interesting came up during out class today. We were translating John 2, ala the wedding at Cama and this line popped up.

8. καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς. "Ἀντλήσατε νῦν καὶ φέρετε τῷ ἀρχιτρικλίνῳ". οἱ δὲ ἤνεγκαν.

John 2:8 uses ἀρχιτρίκλῑνος which is usually translated as something like master of ceremonies. I'm interested in the second part of the word though, 'triclinium'. It's hard to believe that Galilee, probably something like a backwater in what was itself a backwater province, had been Hellenised/Romanised to the extent that they actually had three couches at the wedding and people lay down on it, like some sort of symposium.

I find it fascinating that the author, whoever he was, used such a Hellenistic term to describe a Jewish concept. Was it just a word that had lost its original meaning by that time, like the invocation 'by Jove!' to us, so that he had no problem using it? Or did he equate the functions for the sake of an audience not familiar with Jewish culture? It definitely shows the difficulties in translating one cultural norm into the language of another.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:06 pm

Hi there, I'm trying to translate two sentences from English into Greek.

We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact.
οὐκ μὲν ἴσμεν οὗτινος ἐρῶμεν, ἔτι δὲ αἴτιοί ἐσμεν τούτου ὅ ἐσμεν. I wasn't sure how to translate 'that is the fact'.

Sisyphus is the happiest man alive.
ὁ Σίσυφος ἐστιν ὁ εὐδαιμονέστατος ἄνθπρωπος ὂς ζῇ.
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Re: practice questions

Postby spiphany » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:58 pm

I need to think about the first sentence some more.

For the second one, a few suggestions:
- Greek often omits the copula in sentences like this. The subject is indicated by which words are modified by an article (hence, the importance of "attributive" vs. "predicative" position).
- Instead of a relative clause, I would use a participle. Also, "man" doesn't need to be explicit here; the participle is sufficient.

Thus: ὁ Σίσυφος εὐδαιμονέστατος τῶν ζωόντων
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:08 pm

spiphany wrote:- Instead of a relative clause, I would use a participle. Also, "man" doesn't need to be explicit here; the participle is sufficient.

Thus: ὁ Σίσυφος εὐδαιμονέστατος τῶν ζωόντων

Thank you spiphany. I find it hard not to use relative clauses instead of participles because the former is more familiar to me in English. I'll try to work on that.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Juan Huarte » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:38 pm

χαίρετε, χαίρετε.
I am a newbie at TextKit. I've been studying greek through the italian edition of Athénaze for a couple of years. Lastly I've been struggling with Reading Greek. And I would like very much to participate in these forums. Today I offer a tentative solution and beg a question.
Nooj wrote:We do not know what we want and yet we are responsible for what we are - that is the fact.
οὐκ μὲν ἴσμεν οὗτινος ἐρῶμεν, ἔτι δὲ αἴτιοί ἐσμεν τούτου ὅ ἐσμεν. I wasn't sure how to translate 'that is the fact'.

My tentative alternative:
ἰδού, ἀγνοῦντες ἡμᾶς τὶ βουλομένους, ἡμῶν γὰρ αἴτιοι γιγνόμενοι

τί νομίζετε, ὦ φίλοι

Now my question. It is about accentuation in the following optatives. Why

δυναίμην
δύναιο
δύναιτο
....

while
ἀνισταίμην
ἀνισταῖο (look at the accent :o )
ἀνισταῖτο
...

Thank you, members
χαίρετε
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this signature from Markos over on the Agora forum here at Textkit. Every suggestion as to improve my Greek will be welcome.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Nooj » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:44 pm

Here's what my book says:

The accentuation of athematic-verb optatives normally do not precede the diphthong containing the mood vowel iota.


So ἀνισταῖο instead of ἀνίσταιο.

I've got another question if you don't mind.

καὶ οὐ φοβούμενος μὴ ἁμαρτάνοι τῇ ἑαυτοῦ γνώμῃ πιστεύων, ἐστρατεύσατο ἐπὶ τοὺς Πέρσας, ἵνα τούτους νικήσας τῆς Ἀσίας ἄρχοι.

I don't understand why an optative ἁμαρτάνοι is being used here. The fearing clause needs a secondary tense verb to introduce it in order for an optative to be used, but φοβούμενος is in the present tense...
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Re: practice questions

Postby NateD26 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:07 pm

could it be that within the context of this sentence, the present participle stands for the imperfect?
if so, the verb in the fear clause can change to the optative, and you also see that in the purpose clause
you have ἄρχοι instead of subj. ἄρχῃ.
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Re: practice questions

Postby Juan Huarte » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Nooj wrote:So ἀνισταῖο instead of ἀνίσταιο.
Thank you.

Nooj wrote:I've got another question if you don't mind. ...
Sorry :?
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this signature from Markos over on the Agora forum here at Textkit. Every suggestion as to improve my Greek will be welcome.
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