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Unit 6 Exercises I

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Unit 6 Exercises I

Postby phil96 » Mon May 18, 2009 3:58 am

12. "Erant novī rūmōrēs corpora mīlitum esse sāna et mīlitēs validīs vīribus pūgnāre."

I have "There were new rumours that the bodies of the soldiers were sound (? i.e., were returned to health) and that the soldiers were fighting strongly with the healthy men", but I'm unsure about "validīs ... pūgnāre". M&F say that pūgnāre cum means to fight against; does pūgnāre with a simple ablative mean fighting on the same side?

16. "Respondistī nova perīcula validīs hominibus oppidī mōnstrāta esse."

I'm unsure about "validīs hominibus". My thinking has been:
* it's not "ab hominibus", so it's not "had been shown by the men of the town"
* perhaps dative plural, so "had been shown to the men of the town"
* is "validīs" an adjective ("had been shown to the strong men of the town") -- but usually the adj. follows the noun
* perhaps "validīs" is a substantive, but then is it dative or ablative.
* perhaps a dative of disadvantage "new dangers for the healthy men" or an ablative of origin "new dangers originating from the healthy men"

There are lots of alternatives but I haven't read enough Latin (only chaps 1-6 of M&F!) to weigh up the probabilities. The ablative/dative plural confusion must be a common problem in translation. Any pointers, please?
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Re: Unit 6 Exercises I

Postby paulusnb » Mon May 18, 2009 5:36 am

phil96 wrote:M&F say that pūgnāre cum means to fight against; does pūgnāre with a simple ablative mean fighting on the same side?


Yes. I think so.


phil96 wrote:I'm unsure about "validīs hominibus". My thinking has been:
* it's not "ab hominibus", so it's not "had been shown by the men of the town"
* perhaps dative plural, so "had been shown to the men of the town"


My vote is on the dative. As far as why validis is in front of the noun, I would chalk it up to fake textbook Latin. Adjectives can occasionally come in front of nouns, especially when referring to quantity.


On a side note, I would not obsess so much over the Latin exercises. It is not like M and F are Cicero.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. ~Swift
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Re: Unit 6 Exercises I

Postby phil96 » Mon May 18, 2009 8:52 am

Thank you!

On a side note, I would not obsess so much over the Latin exercises. It is not like M and F are Cicero.

I take your point.......but.......but.....but... it's fun! And M&F must have had something sensible in mind when they wrote them.

I saw a lovely sentence today in the introduction to "Bradley's Arnold" Latin Prose Composition 1938 edition (picked up second hand for next to nothing: no-one learns Latin these days) where the reviser talks about changes he made to the exercises.
"... I have tried to smooth away some angularities in the English, and have occasionally modified a sentence so that the circumstances in which it could have been uttered by a rational human being will be more immediately obvious."
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Re: Unit 6 Exercises I

Postby Damoetas » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:01 pm

phil96 wrote:12. "Erant novī rūmōrēs corpora mīlitum esse sāna et mīlitēs validīs vīribus pūgnāre."

I have "There were new rumours that the bodies of the soldiers were sound (? i.e., were returned to health) and that the soldiers were fighting strongly with the healthy men", but I'm unsure about "validīs ... pūgnāre". M&F say that pūgnāre cum means to fight against; does pūgnāre with a simple ablative mean fighting on the same side?


I know this is from several weeks ago, so perhaps you are long past it by now! But I just wanted to point out hat vīribus is from vīs, pl. vīrēs, vīrium, 'strength,' not from vir, virī, 'man.' The dative/ablative plural of vir would have been virīs, not vīribus. So it means 'with healthy strength' (ablative of means), not ablative of accompaniment with pugnāre.
Dic mihi, Damoeta, 'cuium pecus' anne Latinum?
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Re: Unit 6 Exercises I

Postby phil96 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:32 pm

Damoetas wrote:
phil96 wrote:12. "Erant novī rūmōrēs corpora mīlitum esse sāna et mīlitēs validīs vīribus pūgnāre."

I have "There were new rumours that the bodies of the soldiers were sound (? i.e., were returned to health) and that the soldiers were fighting strongly with the healthy men"...


I know this is from several weeks ago, so perhaps you are long past it by now! But I just wanted to point out hat vīribus is from vīs, pl. vīrēs, vīrium, 'strength,' not from vir, virī, 'man.' The dative/ablative plural of vir would have been virīs, not vīribus. So it means 'with healthy strength' (ablative of means), not ablative of accompaniment with pugnāre.

Not at all! I still have niggling doubts about some of the earlier issues.

I did fall into the vīs/vir trap at my first attempt, but in the posted version I intended:
- vīribus to be an ablative of means "fighting strongly (with strength)"
- validīs to be an ablative adjective used substantively "with the healthy men" (sexist assumption!).

M&F's note about the use of cum to indicate the ablative of accompaniment comes in the following chapter.

At the time it did seem an awkward sentence; "with healthy strength" makes much more sense.
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