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the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

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the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby Junya » Thu May 14, 2009 3:34 am

Hi.

Vnde illi iudicium nouitatis et moris, si non sapit? Vnde illi et offendi et demulceri, si non intellegit? Mirum satis, ut infantia naturaliter animosa sit non habens animum et naturaliter affectiosa sit non habens intellectum. At enim Christus ex ore lactantium et paruulorum experiendo laudem nec pueritiam nec infantiam hebetes pronuntiauit, quarum altera cum suffragio occurrens testimonium ei potuit offerre, altera pro ipso trucidata utique uim sensit.


iudicium: intellectual judgement
offendo: hit (as parents scold children)
demulceo: pet, stroke gently
animosus: full of animus, full of anger, <<full of courage>>
animus: mentality including intellect
affectiosus: full of affection
lacto: suck the milk (from breast)
parvulus: child, kid
experior: know by experience
laus: <<praise>>, praiseworthiness
hebes: weak, idiotous, <<lacking intellectuality>>
suffragium: vote, shove, approval / judgement
trucido: slaughter
vis: mental force, courage / mental force, meaning, sense
sentio: sense physically, <<sense intellectually>>


I am vague with the treatment of the places containing "suffragium" and "vis", I don't grasp the meaning of these places to the detail, though I roughly understand .

+ altera cum suffragio occurrens testimonium ei potuit offerre
I am at a loss whether to choose; "when he met with a shoving approval (from surrounding people)" or "when he came up with a judgement in his intellectuality"; since here Tertullianus is talking about intellectuality in kids.......

+ altera pro ipso trucidata utique uim sensit
I don't know whether "when slaughtered for Christ he knew its (of being slaughtered) meaning intellectually" or "when slaughtered for Christ he felt courage (courage seems to be taken by the author as some intellectual power)" is the correct reading.


"quarum altera....altera" seems to be two short stories from New Testament, but I don't remember such stories in the bible.....




The passage above is directly after the last passage, and still talks about infants that they reallly have intellect. (This chapter is trying to prove anima has intellect from the moment of its birth, so also about babies having intellect around here. Note: in the passage <<Plus est quod de prospectu lacrimabilis uitae quidam augurem incommodorum uocem illam flebilem interpretantur, quod etiam praesciens habenda sit ab ingressu natiuitatis, nedum intellegens.>>, "nedum intellegens" means "and to say more, knowing intellectually". The meaning of "nedum" is a little different from "nondum".....)
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby adrianus » Thu May 14, 2009 8:42 am

Salve Junya
Psalms 8:2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.


Matthew 21:16: And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Sic anglicè dicam:
For had not Christ proclaimed to the contrary that childhood and infancy are not witless with "from the mouth[s] of sucklings and little ones is praise put to the test", in the case of the one [childhood] since evident judgement was able to bear witness to Him, [in the case of] the other [infancy,—slaughter of the innocents, I suppose] it experienced/understood slaughter, or violence at any rate, for His sake/on His behalf.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby Junya » Fri May 15, 2009 4:39 am

Hi, Adrianus, I'm always happy when you give me a reply, because you sound very kind.

Thank you for the bible quotation.

By the way, where does the vigor come from with which you post so many answers and questions here?
When I do internet communication like this, I soon get severe headache (or precisely, scalp-ache) and the amount of my internet activity is considerably limited by this pain. So I'm far from giving as many post as I really want.




Vnde illi iudicium nouitatis et moris, si non sapit? Vnde illi et offendi et demulceri, si non intellegit? Mirum satis, ut infantia naturaliter animosa sit non habens animum et naturaliter affectiosa sit non habens intellectum. At enim Christus ex ore lactantium et paruulorum experiendo laudem nec pueritiam nec infantiam hebetes pronuntiauit, quarum altera cum suffragio occurrens testimonium ei potuit offerre, altera pro ipso trucidata utique uim sensit.



My trial translation was this:

Why is there intellectual judgement in infants(or anima) on what he newly learns and on rules, if it doesn't know (** to know means being intellectual) ?
Why is it hit (=for scolding) and petted (for approving), if it doesn't have intellect (to understand the meaning of hitting and petting) ?
It would be surprising enough if infants have courage by nature without having animus (=mentality including intellect) or have affection by nature without having intellect.


But indeed Christ getting praise from the mouth of sucklings and little kids, proclaimed that neither kids nor infants are idiots (lacking intellectuality),


for, one side of them (=little kids or sucklings) could give a testimony for Christ when met with approval (from the surrounding people)

or
and one side of them (=little kids or sucklings) could give a testimony for Christ when they came up with an intellectual judgement




and the other side of them (little kids or sucklings) when slaughtered for Christ's sake felt courage (courage seems to be taken by the author as some intellectual power)

or
and the other side of them (=little kids or sucklings) when slaughtered for Christ's sake knew its meaning (meaning of being slaughtered) intellectually
.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby adrianus » Fri May 15, 2009 12:45 pm

Salve Junya
Christ getting praise proclaimed= Christus laudatus//Christus laudem accipiens, nonné?
Christus ex ore X & X experiendo laudem...proclamavit...= Christ had proclaimed...out of the mouth of X & X [to be] able to test praise... Allen & Greenough, §505: esse solvendo = to be able to pay
Certainly it isn't a very usual classical form (dative of the gerund plus accusative), but it is often encountered later, unless I'm off.
Quod certè ut classica forma rarò videtur (gerundium dativo casu cum accusativo), sed seriore aetate frequentiùs invenitur, nisi fallor.

By the way, where does the vigor come from with which you post so many answers and questions here?

This is my method of learning (one, anyway): Socratic disputation, or Q&A, in the target language. Plus relying on others' kindness in this community of practice. And I don't have a tendency to get headaches. I feel for you that you do.
Hoc est mihi modus discendi (unus saltem): via Socratica per disputationem, vel quaestiones responsaque, sermone destinato. Et ego benignitatem aliorum intra hanc exercitationis consortionem confido. Nedum proclivitatem cephalagiae non habeam. Quod tu habes me paenitet.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby adrianus » Fri May 15, 2009 1:58 pm

Unde illi iudicium nouitatis et moris, si non sapit? Vnde illi et offendi et demulceri, si non intellegit?

How you translate is great, I think. Personally, I read 'illi' in two senses in English here:
Quomodò vertas perbonum est, ut opinor. Ego ipse hîc 'illi' pronomen duobus modis anglicè lego:
Unde illi iudicium = "Whence [comes] his judgement...", quià "illi est" = "it is his"
Unde illi offendi = "Wherefore/why ought he to be disciplined...", quià "Meum/mihi est id facere" = It behoves me to do that

Mirum satis, ut infantia naturaliter animosa sit non habens animum et naturaliter affectiosa sit non habens intellectum.

"Pretty incredible that [a child in] infancy should be naturally instinctual/passionate not possessing spirit/a soul, and naturally emotional/moody not having intelligence."
Last edited by adrianus on Fri May 15, 2009 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby Junya » Fri May 15, 2009 2:06 pm

Hi, Adrianus.

Yes, I am also unsure about the "experiendo" in

At enim Christus ex ore lactantium et paruulorum experiendo laudem nec pueritiam nec infantiam hebetes pronuntiauit


So, though unsure, I took it as a gerund in ablative form, and understood the structure of the sentence as

"Christus experiendo(= by experiencing) laudem ex ore lactantium.....pronuntiavit nec pueritiam nec infantiam hebetes."
(Christ by getting praise from the mouth of .....proclaimed that neither......is lacking intellectuality.)



And now I get your suggestion that the "experiendo" is the dative of aim. But I become unsure about the structure of this sentence if I take it as the dative of aim.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby Junya » Fri May 15, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi, Adrianus.

About illi in

Unde illi iudicium nouitatis et moris, si non sapit? Vnde illi et offendi et demulceri, si non intellegit?


I agree.
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Re: the meaning of "suffragium" and "vim sentit"

Postby adrianus » Fri May 15, 2009 2:28 pm

I would trust your judgement more because you're stuck into his writings, so some of his turns of phrase will quicker be understood by you than by me.
Tuum judicium praeferendum est, ut opinor, quià apud Tertullianum immersus es, ergo significationes quarumdam figurarum illius auctoris tibi citiùs quàm mihi se ostendent.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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