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Is a noun used like an adjective ?

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Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby Junya » Tue May 12, 2009 3:57 am

Hi.

The author (a Christian) is trying to prove in this chapter that "anima" has from the very beginning of its birth all the ability pertaining to human beings, and so it has not only the five senses, but also the intellect, as an inborn thing, contending against some who say intellect comes from outside.

Plus est quod de prospectu lacrimabilis uitae quidam augurem incommodorum uocem illam flebilem interpretantur, quod etiam praesciens habenda sit ab ingressu natiuitatis, nedum intellegens. Exinde et matrem spiritu probat et nutricem spiritu examinat et gerulam spiritu agnoscit, fugiens extranea ubera et recusans ignota cubilia , neminem appetens nisi ex usu.


I am unsure about the first sentence.
+I am stuck with "augurem" being unable to see it as a noun in this sentence. So I took "augurem" as "auguralem".
+And maybe I'm having difficulty with the use of "interpretor". I took it as "interpretantur auguralem vocem quod.....".
So I read this sentence like this:

And there is more of the evidence, that, some people from their experience of sad life interpret the augur's that sad voice announcing misfortunes that the augur even knew in advance the things to happen since the beginning of his birth, and yes also knew them in his intellectuality.




I want to post questions like this every day, but internet communication, for me, takes too much time and energy. So it's impossible to do it every day. I'm sad. :(
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby thesaurus » Tue May 12, 2009 2:37 pm

Plus est quod de prospectu lacrimabilis uitae quidam augurem incommodorum uocem illam flebilem interpretantur, quod etiam praesciens habenda sit ab ingressu natiuitatis, nedum intellegens. Exinde et matrem spiritu probat et nutricem spiritu examinat et gerulam spiritu agnoscit, fugiens extranea ubera et recusans ignota cubilia , neminem appetens nisi ex usu.

I am unsure about the first sentence.
+I am stuck with "augurem" being unable to see it as a noun in this sentence. So I took "augurem" as "auguralem".
+And maybe I'm having difficulty with the use of "interpretor". I took it as "interpretantur auguralem vocem quod.....".
So I read this sentence like this:

And there is more of the evidence, that, some people from their experience of sad life interpret the augur's that sad voice announcing misfortunes that the augur even knew in advance the things to happen since the beginning of his birth, and yes also knew them in his intellectuality.


Salve care Junya,

I searched up the sentence before this one from Tertullian for some context:

Mentior, si non statim infans, ut uitam uagitu salutauit, hoc ipsum se testatur sensisse atque intellexisse quod natus est, omnes simul ibidem dedicans sensus, et luce uisum et sono auditum et umore gustum et aere odoratum et terra tactum. Ita prima illa uox de primis sensuum motibus et de primis intellectuum pulsibus cogitur. Plus est quod de prospectu lacrimabilis uitae quidam augurem incommodorum uocem illam flebilem interpretantur, quod etiam praesciens habenda sit ab ingressu natiuitatis, nedum intellegens. Exinde et matrem spiritu probat et nutricem spiritu examinat et gerulam spiritu agnoscit, fugiens extranea ubera et recusans ignota cubilia , neminem appetens nisi ex usu.

"I lie, if the infant, as she hails life with a wail, does not immediately testify that she had perceived this very thing and understood that she was born, at once and at that very instant applying all the senses, sight with light and hearing with sound and smelling with air and touch with the earth. Thus that first voice is forced from the first movements of the senses and from the first pulses of the intellect. It is more, what certain [philosophers] interpret about the sight of a mournful life, that that weeping voice is a prophet of [future] harms, which the child is even held to be aware of, [if] not yet understanding. Thence [the child] approves of [its] mother with [its] spirit, examines the nurse with [its] spirit, and recognizes the porter with [its] spirit, fleeing foreign breasts and refusing unknown beds, desiring nobody whom it hasn't first experienced."


This was a very difficult passage for me to translate. To answer your questions, a noun CAN be used by an adjective if it is put in apposition to another noun. For example, "Cicero consul saepe declamabat," "Cicero, the consul, often made speeches," (consul is in apposition with Cicero) and "Amo Lesbiam, puellam meam," "I love Lesbia, my girl," (puellam meam is in apposition with Lesbiam). So in the passage I think voice and augur are put in apposition, to equate them. Some say that the voice IS an augur/prophet of harms. "philosophi vocem esse augurem incommodorum interpretantur." Tricky.

I think "plus est quod," should be "Plus est, quod..." with the first two words being something like "moreover." You might be able to rewrite the sentence like this: "Plus est quod quidam philosophi interpretantur de prospectu lacrimabilis vitae, augurem incommodorum vocem illam flebilem esse, quod [infans?] etiam praesciens habenda sit ab ingressu nativitatis, nedum intellegens."

This is all in the context of the baby who was just born and is now crying. Tertullian seems to be discussing why it's crying. Some say that it's because the baby has sensed (on an unconscious level) that it is being born to a life of suffering and future evils. Quite a tragic interpretation. However, the baby only knows what it experiences (ex usu), so it desires its mom, accustomed location and attendants.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby adrianus » Tue May 12, 2009 3:16 pm

You are ahead of me again, thesaurus.
Denuò tu primus advenis, thesaure.
Sic converto
:
What is more, some people interpret that crying [baby's] voice as an augur of setbacks in terms of life's lamentable prospect[s], something that should be considered prescient from the moment of birth, whether understood or not. By the same token, one who shuns strange breasts and refuses unfamiliar beds, who seeks out no one except for a purpose, also figures out instinctually the mother, determines instinctually the suckler, and recognizes instinctually the one who bore one.

Very Beckettian. Valdè Beckettianè (Samuel Beckett scilicet).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby Junya » Wed May 13, 2009 4:49 am

Great reading !
It seems very very coherent !
Now I reread it myself with your translation to make sure if I can read so.
Great !
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby Junya » Wed May 13, 2009 6:10 am

Could you explain how you realized the "vox" itself was "augur" ? Is there a resembling expression in English?

And how did you realize the "uocem illam flebilem" was the baby's first voice?

And how did you realized "vita" of the "de prospectu lacrimabilis vitae" was meaning "the birth moment"? I couldn't find such a meaning in dictionaries.

Did it all come from your reading speed?
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby adrianus » Wed May 13, 2009 1:09 pm

junya wrote:[1] Could you explain how you realized the "vox" itself was "augur" ? Is there a resembling expression in English?
[2] And how did you realize the "uocem illam flebilem" was the baby's first voice?
[3] And how did you realized "vita" of the "de prospectu lacrimabilis vitae" was meaning "the birth moment"? I couldn't find such a meaning in dictionaries.
[4] Did it all come from your reading speed?

Speaking for me, at least, Meâ parte solâ dicens,
[1] two nouns beside each other in the same case suggests apposition, I reckon.//Duo nomina eodem casu propter se apposita connexa sunt, ut puto.
[2] Exinde signifies that the sentences are logically connected, so the baby in the second links to the sense of the first.//Ob hoc adverbium "exinde" videlicet, nostrum est intellegere has binas sententias jugatas esse. Ergo, infans secundae ad alteram it, ut sensus perficiatur.
[3] ab ingressu nativitatis = from the moment of birth,
de prospectu lacrimabilis uitae = in terms of life's lamentable prospect
[4] For me, all stems from a pursuit of the intended meaning, of what a sensible person could say. In this case, it stemmed pretty slowly, I have to say.// Â meâ parte, ê significatione inquirendâ eius quod sanus dicat fluit sensus. Hoc casu, fateor, sensìm sensus emersit.
I really love the modern writings of Samuel Beckett, and that helps here. Scripta autem moderna Samuelis Beckett auctoris valdè amo, quod hîc juvat.
What about you, thesaurus? Quid de te, thesaure?
Last edited by adrianus on Wed May 13, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby thesaurus » Wed May 13, 2009 1:33 pm

As Adrianus says, it was a slower rather than fast reading for this passage. For me, the 'secret' to figuring out the meaning of the referents was to follow Tertullian's chain of reasoning as best I could, and putting the passage in context helped with that. He was talking about the circumstance of a baby coming into the world in the sentences before the one you quoted, and it make sense for him to use the same referrents until he marks a change in subject (like a new paragraph). If I can't figure something out on its own, I look back to see what he could be referring to.

Ut Adrianus suaviter dicit, lectus lentior quàm celerior fuit. Si de me dicam, 'secretum' legendi est rationem Tertulliani semper persequi quoad possum. Si omnes Tertulliani senentias unà ponas, hic contextus lectioni auxillio est. Tertullianus de infante in mundum ineunte prioribus in sententiis scribebat, itaque lector cordatus ratiocinetur conmemorationes manere idem nisi auctor subiectum scribendi vertit. Si aliquae textûs pars mihi intellegenti offendit, rursùm cedo ut inspiciam an conmemorationem adsit.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Is a noun used like an adjective ?

Postby Junya » Thu May 14, 2009 3:01 am

thesaurus, Adrianus, your words make a great advice. Thank you. :D

These days I seem to be well managing my time, and it seems I may be able to post questions every day, at least for a week or two.
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