study a NT book

[sid4greek]

Dear all,

my name's Sidney; I have just registered and I was wondering whether someone is interested in starting to study a NT book verse by verse....

all the best

sidney

[Bert]

I would really like to but I am quite strapped for time. What sort of pace were you thinking of.

[modus.irrealis]

I'd also be interested in something like this if this were started.

[johnkn63]

I have just posted suggestion for a johannine reading group that would go through John's writings.

Regards
John

[Ramses]

Would be a great idea! I'd participate.

[GTM]

I also would participate in the study.

GTM

[paulusnb]

For now, I would like to participate from afar. When summer kicks in I can be more involved.

[GTM]

So I guess the question should be, "How do we get this started and who will spear head or lead the study"?

GTM

[Ramses]

I'd love to lead this study, but I know by no means enough Greek to do so. Also, it doesn't really matter to me what book we're going to study.

[GTM]

Ramses

quote

I'd love to lead this study, but I know by no means enough Greek to do so. Also, it doesn't really matter to me what book we're going to study.

I have no problem with you heading this study up. I am sure that those who are more polished in the Greek than I am will offer us guidance in this study. I would say, let's pick a text and begin.

GTM

[Bert]

Ramses

quote

I'd love to lead this study, but I know by no means enough Greek to do so. Also, it doesn't really matter to me what book we're going to study.

I have no problem with you heading this study up. I am sure that those who are more polished in the Greek than I am will offer us guidance in this study. I would say, let's pick a text and begin.

GTM

I agree. To lead this group you need dedication, foresight and initiative. If you have those, you're our man.

[sid4greek]

so...which book can we start from?

cheers

[GTM]

sid4greek

I personally would like to go through 1 John. But I am flexible.

GTM

[sid4greek]

1 John is ok for me, but remember that my greek is pretty rusty.....oh one thing is it John 1 or 1 John??

sid

[Bert]

John 1 means the first chapter of the gospel according to John. 1 John is the epistle.

[GTM]

Bert

1 John is the epistle. That sounds good to me!.

sid4greek Don't worry about rusty Greek. My is beyond rust.

GTM

[sid4greek]

to me too!! so when can we get started with 1 John?

cheers

sid

[GTM]

Let's start here:

ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς,

ὃ = Relative pronoun, nominative singular neuter.

What was from the beginning. I guess the question I would have is, "why did the writer begin in this manner"? It seems as if the author wasn't speaking of Christ because if the writer were speaking of Christ would he not have written, "He who was from the beginning"? But then we see that which we have heard and seen and looked upon and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life.

GTM

[Bert]

Let's start here:

ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς,

ὃ = Relative pronoun, nominative singular neuter.

What was from the beginning. I guess the question I would have is, "why did the writer begin in this manner"? It seems as if the author wasn't speaking of Christ because if the writer were speaking of Christ would he not have written, "He who was from the beginning"? But then we see that which we have heard and seen and looked upon and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life.

GTM

Maybe he is not speaking directly about Christ but about something(s) concerning (περ́ι )him.
̔́ο does get used as personal too. Have a look at John 6:37 Πᾶν ̔́ο δ́ιδωσ́ιν μοι ὁ πατὴρ πρ̀ος ἐμ̀ε ̔́ηξει,....

[GTM]

Bert

You said:

Maybe he is not speaking directly about Christ but about something(s) concerning (περ́ι )him.

I am inclined to agree with your idea but that isn't with out some difficulties.

There seems to be much debate by Bible scholars as to whether the main idea in this verse is the person of Jesus Christ or whether it is the gospel message. Looking forward in this text we see that the writer references seeing and touching which seems to suggests the person of Jesus Christ while the second idea of looking upon and hands have handled concerning the Word of life, seems to suggests the preaching of the Gospel.

you also said:

̔́ο does get used as personal too. Have a look at John 6:37 Πᾶν ̔́ο(accusative singular neuter) δ́ιδωσ́ιν μοι ὁ (nominative singular masculine) πατὴρ πρ̀ος ἐμ̀ε ̔́ηξει,

In John 6:37 the first pronoun is in a neuter form which seems to make it less personal.
Misselbrook suggests that in John 6:37 Πᾶν ̔́ο is used in a collective sense instead of pante" ouJ
So maybe what we are looking at here , and I am not totally sure, is an emphasis on the the collective aspect of the Father's gift of a people to His Son. If that is the case then this neuter form is correct grammatically and is no longer to be considered personal.

What do you think? Do you know of any other texts with this neuter form working as a personal pronoun?

GTM





The second is definitely personal.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

[modus.irrealis]

What are the reasons for taking λόγος here to be "Word"? That seems to be the mainstream reading, but I read it as just meaning "message" or something similar and so the relative clauses here would simply refer to things about the message of life. Grammatically at least, since as far as I can tell the author would have identified the message with eternal life with love and finally with Christ, so that directly or indirectly, Christ is being referred to.

Does anyone think there is any significance to the use of the aorist with εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν? I was tempted to read them as meaning something different, as referring to specific historical events while the perfects were a more general "we have experienced as Christians".

[GTM]

modus.irrealis

You asked:

What are the reasons for taking λόγος here to be "Word"? That seems to be the mainstream reading, but I read it as just meaning "message" or something similar and so the relative clauses here would simply refer to things about the message of life. Grammatically at least, since as far as I can tell the author would have identified the message with eternal life with love and finally with Christ, so that directly or indirectly, Christ is being referred to.

It seems to me that the author used the "ὃ" at lease three times. I am not sure if it was done for emphasis or if it were this writers style but it seems as if it was an attempt to convey the message. I agree with your assertion that this text is about the things concerning (peri) the message of life.

You asked:
Does anyone think there is any significance to the use of the aorist with εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν? I was tempted to read them as meaning something different, as referring to specific historical events while the perfects were a more general "we have experienced as Christians".

I am getting ahead of myself here but, I understand εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν as being brought about for different reasons. Here is my thought, First: ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν seem a little more casual based on the context. That which they have heard and that which they have seen. These ideas seem to suggest Jesus' earthly ministry.

Second : εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν from other scriptures could lead us towards the conclusion that this segment was more in line with after Christs death and resurrection. They looked upon Him. It wasn't just a casual glance but it was a look of amazement. Then we have the John 20 event. Thomas touched Christs hands and said, "My Lord and My God".

You asked:

Does anyone think there is any significance to the use of the aorist

My understanding of εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν is that they are in an indicative form.(first person aorist middle indicative plural). I am also under the impression that in the indicative form time is a consideration. I may be wrong and welcome correction on this idea. SO I do believe that the aorist tense here speaks of this second set of ideas as something different than the first and probably they happened at a different point in time.

GTM

[modus.irrealis]

Second : εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν from other scriptures could lead us towards the conclusion that this segment was more in line with after Christs death and resurrection. They looked upon Him. It wasn't just a casual glance but it was a look of amazement. Then we have the John 20 event. Thomas touched Christs hands and said, "My Lord and My God".

That makes sense. It does seem that the wording here would allude to the resurrection.

My understanding of εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν is that they are in an indicative form.(first person aorist middle indicative plural). I am also under the impression that in the indicative form time is a consideration. I may be wrong and welcome correction on this idea. SO I do believe that the aorist tense here speaks of this second set of ideas as something different than the first and probably they happened at a different point in time.

Well, all the verbs here are indicative, so it's a difference in tense/aspect. The thing for me was that the translations I looked at were translating the aorist as perfects as well. Now I know that there are many cases where a Greek aorist is equivalent to an English perfect, but I can't help but think that here the change in tense does make some difference.

[Bert]

modus.irrealis

You asked:

What are the reasons for taking λόγος here to be "Word"? That seems to be the mainstream reading, but I read it as just meaning "message" or something similar and so the relative clauses here would simply refer to things about the message of life. Grammatically at least, since as far as I can tell the author would have identified the message with eternal life with love and finally with Christ, so that directly or indirectly, Christ is being referred to.

It seems to me that the author used the "ὃ" at lease three times. I am not sure if it was done for emphasis or if it were this writers style but it seems as if it was an attempt to convey the message. I agree with your assertion that this text is about the things concerning (peri) the message of life.

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.
και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν.
This Life was manifested to us and was seen.

[Bert]

.......... The thing for me was that the translations I looked at were translating the aorist as perfects as well. Now I know that there are many cases where a Greek aorist is equivalent to an English perfect, but I can't help but think that here the change in tense does make some difference.

Thanks for that question Modus; I think both you and GTM may have the answer already: GTM wrote

εθεασαμεθα and εψηλαφησαν from other scriptures could lead us towards the conclusion that this segment was more in line with after Christs death and resurrection. They looked upon Him. It wasn't just a casual glance but it was a look of amazement. Then we have the John 20 event. Thomas touched Christs hands and said, "My Lord and My God".

you wrote:

I was tempted to read them as meaning something different, as referring to specific historical events while the perfects were a more general "we have experienced as Christians".

I hadn't thought about the importance of the difference tenses before but you may be right.

[GTM]

Bert

You quoted:

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.

I think that is an excellent thought. It seem to give a fuller understanding to the ideas in the first verse.

Just out of curiosity,how would you define the message of life?

GTM

[GTM]

modus.irrealis

you wrote

That makes sense. It does seem that the wording here would allude to the resurrection.

But is there any way that we can confirm that idea from this text?

GTM

[sid4greek]

ooppsss....I can't see the greek characters properly...what can I do?

[sid4greek]

after sme changes in the control panel I can see some of the characters (Greek Polytonic) but I am still getting small squares between the characters....

for instance I can't see what the box is:

quote: "It seems to me that the author used the "ὃ" at lease three times"


cheers

[sid4greek]

Let's start here:

ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς,

ὃ = Relative pronoun, nominative singular neuter.

What was from the beginning. I guess the question I would have is, "why did the writer begin in this manner"? It seems as if the author wasn't speaking of Christ because if the writer were speaking of Christ would he not have written, "He who was from the beginning"? But then we see that which we have heard and seen and looked upon and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life.

GTM

after reading all your messages, I think that the first verse which starts off with a neuter relative pronoun is clearly speaking about the message/gospel/Christ....actually, everything that incorporates the message of Christ and about which the christian community was very familiar with. The peculiar thing about this shared knowledge is that it is based on experience and it is not theoretical. I guess that the neuter realtive pronoun is a means to gather all this knowledge in one packet for simpler reference...

[GTM]

modus.irrealis

you said:

That makes sense. It does seem that the wording here would allude to the resurrection.

As we continue to unravel this text, it seems to me that if this text is about the Gospel Message then it would be more than just likely that the Death and Resurrection would be included as in integral part of that message. What Gospel message is complete with out it?

GTM

[sid4greek]

I agree

[modus.irrealis]

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.
και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν.
This Life was manifested to us and was seen.

I agree that ζωή here is Life and that it's identified with Christ*, but I think Christ is one step removed in a sense. I mean, I kind of see it as the author saying (ignoring the parenthetical verse 2) "Concerning the message of life (= Gospel), we declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our own eyes, what we beheld and what our hands touched, so that..." So in my reading, the initial ὃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς would not be personal (referring to the Son of God as existing from the beginning) but referring to their declaration being unchanged and being the same as the original gospel -- this idea seems to recur later in the epistle (2:7 e.g.). So the emphasis would be on what the author is declaring about the gospel, rather than about Chirst directly. I did some reading and some suggest the author here is establishing the authenticity of his message and there's an emphasis on being an eye-witness. But the grammar here seems to allow different interpretations (one commentary I found called it "grammatically incoherent"!), so I'm not sure.

* That also reminds me of one the reasons I found the translation of λόγος as "Word" a bit odd, since "Word" suggests to me that the translator took λόγος here to refer to Christ, but it's the ζωή that was manifested and which seems to be identified with Christ.

[modus.irrealis]

after sme changes in the control panel I can see some of the characters (Greek Polytonic) but I am still getting small squares between the characters....

for instance I can't see what the box is:

quote: "It seems to me that the author used the "ὃ" at lease three times"


cheers

It looks like a font problem, since I see the Greek character correctly in your post. If you don't have a font that has the Greek characters, you can download Gentium for free at http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page ... id=gentium and it's nice. If you do, then it's just a matter of getting your browser to use that font. What browser are you using? Newer ones usually substitute another font for characters that the current font lacks, so if you do have a font with Greek characters but have an older browser, updating your browser alone might work.

[modus.irrealis]

As we continue to unravel this text, it seems to me that if this text is about the Gospel Message then it would be more than just likely that the Death and Resurrection would be included as in integral part of that message. What Gospel message is complete with out it?

I agree as well. It's hard to see what else "touching" would refer to and like you mentioned there are connections between touching and the resurrection, like with Thomas as you mentioned.

[Bert]

Bert

You quoted:

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.

I think that is an excellent thought. It seem to give a fuller understanding to the ideas in the first verse.

Just out of curiosity,how would you define the message of life?

GTM

You mean how would I define the message of life (lower case l)? I don't know; I don't think the text is speaking about it. If we take it that way we could end up with a passage that teaches some moral instead of giving us the gospel.
A very short description of the message of Life (upper case L) possibly is that it is the basis of our fellowship. (verse 3)

[Bert]

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.
και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν.
This Life was manifested to us and was seen.

I agree that ζωή here is Life and that it's identified with Christ*, but I think Christ is one step removed in a sense. I mean, I kind of see it as the author saying (ignoring the parenthetical verse 2) "Concerning the message of life (= Gospel), we declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our own eyes, what we beheld and what our hands touched, so that..." So in my reading, the initial ὃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς would not be personal (referring to the Son of God as existing from the beginning) but referring to their declaration being unchanged and being the same as the original gospel -- this idea seems to recur later in the epistle (2:7 e.g.). So the emphasis would be on what the author is declaring about the gospel, rather than about Chirst directly. I did some reading and some suggest the author here is establishing the authenticity of his message and there's an emphasis on being an eye-witness. But the grammar here seems to allow different interpretations (one commentary I found called it "grammatically incoherent"!), so I'm not sure.

* That also reminds me of one the reasons I found the translation of λόγος as "Word" a bit odd, since "Word" suggests to me that the translator took λόγος here to refer to Christ, but it's the ζωή that was manifested and which seems to be identified with Christ.

I don't think I agree Modus; If the passage is about the declaration instead of about Christ then the seeing, observing, touching and handling doesn't a lot of sense.
Taking Logos to mean Christ is not that strange; He is Life, and he is the Word. The Word = the Word of life.

[jaihare]

It looks like a font problem, since I see the Greek character correctly in your post. If you don't have a font that has the Greek characters, you can download Gentium for free at http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page ... id=gentium and it's nice. If you do, then it's just a matter of getting your browser to use that font. What browser are you using? Newer ones usually substitute another font for characters that the current font lacks, so if you do have a font with Greek characters but have an older browser, updating your browser alone might work.

The only problem is that the forum is set for Arial to be the default Greek font. The stylesheet sets it as:

Code: Select all

.content {
   font-size: 11pt;
   line-height: 14pt;
   margin-bottom: 1em;
   font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Trebuchet MS", Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
   overflow: hidden;
}

I don't have Lucida Grande on my system, but Trebuchet MS and Verdana are neither set up for Polytonic Greek (at least in the versions of the fonts that I have on my system). Arial is the only font in the settings that matched the prescription — that is, that it is fully Unicode compatible. The "sans-serif" default doesn't help if the user doesn't have a sans-serif font containing the Polytonic Greek character set. According to the Microsoft Office website, "If you are using Microsoft Windows XP, the universal font for Unicode is automatically installed," but that isn't true in reality. XP doesn't come with the complete font, but Vista does. The release that came out with Vista is 5.01, and it contains everything necessary for Polytonic Greek. Version 5.05 comes with Windows 7 Beta. It will also support the Greek characters on this forum.

So, I would suggest either looking on your other systems for the newer version of the font and transferring it (which is what I did to have the 5.01 version on my laptop) or purchasing the newer edition (notice that this page has information about the release history of the font), which should run you around $25 US. It's a pity, though. I personally don't like the look of the Arial font, but it's what my browser reads on the forum. Strangely, I like the look of Polytonic Greek in the 5.01 release of the Times New Roman font. :">

Regards,
Jason

[sid4greek]

I wonder if you both are missing something; The message is not just a message about the things concerning the message of life but concerning the message of Life.
και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν.
This Life was manifested to us and was seen.

I agree that ζωή here is Life and that it's identified with Christ*, but I think Christ is one step removed in a sense. I mean, I kind of see it as the author saying (ignoring the parenthetical verse 2) "Concerning the message of life (= Gospel), we declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our own eyes, what we beheld and what our hands touched, so that..." So in my reading, the initial ὃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς would not be personal (referring to the Son of God as existing from the beginning) but referring to their declaration being unchanged and being the same as the original gospel -- this idea seems to recur later in the epistle (2:7 e.g.). So the emphasis would be on what the author is declaring about the gospel, rather than about Chirst directly. I did some reading and some suggest the author here is establishing the authenticity of his message and there's an emphasis on being an eye-witness. But the grammar here seems to allow different interpretations (one commentary I found called it "grammatically incoherent"!), so I'm not sure.

* That also reminds me of one the reasons I found the translation of λόγος as "Word" a bit odd, since "Word" suggests to me that the translator took λόγος here to refer to Christ, but it's the ζωή that was manifested and which seems to be identified with Christ.

I think we are dealing here with two types of knowledge represented by two words: logos vs zoe; perhaps the" word" and the "living word (life)" respectively....

by the way, thanks for all the comments about the fonts...let's see what I can do!

cheers

[modus.irrealis]

The only problem is that the forum is set for Arial to be the default Greek font.

But a good browser should be able to make up for any deficiencies in the default font by using other fonts for those characters. For example, here are some Armenian letters: աբգդե. Of these it seems that դ exists in Verdana but the others aren't in any of the fonts that in are in the stylesheet (and that I have), and in fact it looks like my browser (Firefox) is using Verdana for դ and some other font for the other ones. That's why I thought getting Gentium and having a newer browser should be enough to view the Greek on the site.