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Hand gun control

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Re: Hand gun control

Postby BillD » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:11 am

Kasper wrote:Your position seems to be unclear, do you have the right to own and use a gun because of a legal right or because of a moral right? I doubt anyone will argue against your current legal right (although maintaining a law because of a status quo that occurred 200 years ago seems very odd - and if the founders were so convinced of this need and right, why was there a need for amendment to get it into the Bill of Rights? why wasn't it there in the first place? (And why do I get the impresssion that the founding fathers presently occupy Mt Olympus in the US?)), but your moral right remains debatable.

Both. The legal right proceeds from the moral right. The Bill of Rights was not conceived as a grant of rights by a government to the people. It was a codification of rights that the founders believed to be already in existence.

When the Constitution was written, it was meant to clearly define and limit the powers of the government. It was a recognition that governments exist by the consent of (and serve as an instrument of) the governed. The reason they felt the need to include the Bill of Rights was that many (notably the Anti-Federalists, such as Patrick Henry and George Mason) believed the Constitution granted too much power to the federal government and the express limitations on this power needed to be enumerated. They recognized the rights to be pre-existing but they also recognized the tendency of any government to expand uncontrollably if not checked.

The second amendment was a recognition of the inherent rights of man to be secure in his own person and to be free of tyrannical governments. Note the language: "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This is not a grant of rights but a very severe limitation on the power of government.

If you accept the proposition that a government is an instrument of the governed, then you must also grant that the people must have the means to control that government and if necessary to overthrow it, if the government ceases to serve the ends of the people. The second amendment was a recognition of that natural and moral right and recognized its legal status. Ultimately, the right to keep and bear arms is a recognition of the right (and indeed, the reponsibility) of the people to exercise control over their government. So to reiterate, we have both a moral and a legal right to keep and bear arms.

To answer your parenthetical question, the reason our founding fathers are held in such high regard is that they produced a system of government that was truly revolutionary and that most Americans believe is deserving of a degree of reverence. Looked at in the context of the times in which they lived, the achievements of the founders were extraordinary.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby Lex » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:19 am

BillD wrote:The second amendment was a recognition of the inherent rights of man to be secure in his own person and to be free of tyrannical governments. Note the language: "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This is not a grant of rights but a very severe limitation on the power of government.


Actually, all of the Bill of Rights is intended as statement of what the federal government can't do to the people, not a statement of what it can do for the people, as Obama would like it to be.

And, for the non-Americans out there, the 2nd Amendment is the only place in the Constitution that says "shall not be infringed". Other amendments say "Congress shall make no law" regarding such-and-such, but do not limit state or local governments from doing so. The 2nd Amendment limits all government, of any level whatsoever, from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby Lex » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:21 am

grdSavant wrote:Please keep in mind that one of us is from Michigan and that is not California nor Massachusetts. We keep certain people there, and only there. I think there was reference to "tooth-missing-Confederate-flag-waving-fake-Nazi-memorabilia-selling rednecks," ...


Wow, how did I miss this before?

Yeah, like there are no rednecks in Florida. Hehehehehe.... Of course, if you're a filthy rich retiree, and live in a gated community in Florida, you can afford to have οἱ πολλοί security guards do the dirty work of defense for you. No need to soil your hands with gun oil yourself.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby Cathexis » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:01 pm

Lex wrote:
BillD wrote:The second amendment was a recognition of the inherent rights of man to be secure in his own person and to be free of tyrannical governments. Note the language: "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This is not a grant of rights but a very severe limitation on the power of government.


Actually, all of the Bill of Rights is intended as statement of what the federal government can't do to the people, not a statement of what it can do for the people, as Obama would like it to be.

And, for the non-Americans out there, the 2nd Amendment is the only place in the Constitution that says "shall not be infringed". Other amendments say "Congress shall make no law" regarding such-and-such, but do not limit state or local governments from doing so. The 2nd Amendment limits all government, of any level whatsoever, from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms.



Precisely!

I'm not going to wade thru eight pages of postings so I'm sure somone has already pointed out
somewhere that the principal reason for the 2nd Amendment is to empower the people vs.
Gov't Tyranny. Although it is true that the capabilities of military weaponry today vs. then
is much greater than that available to the civilian sector, the profound effect of even 3-4
rounds from a single dilapidated italian surplus rifle in Dallas one day prove (tragically) that
those rights are as powerful today as they were then. To say that preventing civilian gun
ownership would have saved JFK's life misses the point.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby GTM » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:57 am

I enjoy shooting handguns and have handled many. Funny thing is, they never hurt anybody.

The truth of the matter is this, it isn't guns that kill people it is people that kill people and the banning of hands guns will most assuredly cause more death than it prevents.

Signed the Gun Totin :mrgreen:

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Re: Hand gun control

Postby rustymason » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:13 am

Take my guns away? That's not very nice. How are us innocent people supposed to defend ourselves against attackers and aggressive do-gooders? And how will you types take my guns from me, anyway? By force, of course: with a gun. Ita, sic semper tyrranis.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby alismith » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:37 am

GTM wrote:I enjoy shooting handguns and have handled many. Funny thing is, they never hurt anybody.

The truth of the matter is this, it isn't guns that kill people it is people that kill people and the banning of hands guns will most assuredly cause more death than it prevents.

Signed the Gun Totin :mrgreen:

GTM


Hahaha, kind of reminds me of the person from the movie 'Happy Gilmore' with the t-shirt that read "Guns don't kill people, I kill people"

Anyways, I agree with your statement, GTM. I am taking an online class right now that is basically all about gun laws and this argument has been the strongest in our discussions so far.
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Re: Hand gun control

Postby GTM » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:04 am

alismith

Hahaha, kind of reminds me of the person from the movie 'Happy Gilmore' with the t-shirt that read "Guns don't kill people, I kill people"


I missed that movie. Maybe I should rent it.

happy shooting and God Bless.

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