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Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:11 am

Hi Everybody,

I was looking at the Study Groups and it semms the last started on 2007, maybe we can start a new group. I'm very interested in Greek Poetry, for examen. Also Latin can be, why don't we start the reading of a latin text?
Thanks.
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:50 am

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:Hi Everybody,

I was looking at the Study Groups and it semms the last started on 2007, maybe we can start a new group. I'm very interested in Greek Poetry, for examen. Also Latin can be, why don't we start the reading of a latin text?
Thanks.

Which text are you wanting to start? I want to start up Homeric Greek. Are you looking at something else?

Regards,
Jason
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:59 am

Homeric Greek sounds nice, is anybody else interested? :D
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:55 pm

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:Homeric Greek sounds nice, is anybody else interested? :D

No idea. I hope so.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:44 pm

I'll make it a point to check back in here at least daily to see if we get some kind of feedback. To contact me personally, send me a PM here on the forum or send an e-mail to jaihare@jhronline.com. I'm really looking forward to this. If it's just you and me (Ivan), we can start whenever you're ready. I've started already and have nearly completed the first-declension sections (both in reading the bits on morphology and syntax as assigned and also in the translations). Do you already have some experience with Greek study?

Yours,
Jason
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Re: Study Group

Postby annis » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:16 pm

The way this usually works is that someone (or several someones) are nominally in charge of the group — that person is responsible for the schedule, etc. In the past we've also had "guides" — people who are already comfortable with Homer and who correct work. In general, to have only one person in charge or only one guide doesn't work very well — these groups usually take about a year and a half to complete, and that's a long commitment. Having several people involved is safer.

We used to use web-based software for work submissions and correcting, along with an email mailing list, but the author of that hasn't been to Textkit for some time. I can see if he's still around and prepared to support the software.

I'll also get to work on creating a mailing list for this.

I should mention that Jeff is working hard behind the scenes preparing a new version of the entire Textkit site, based on Drupal (it's further along than the version he demoed some time ago). It may be we can work that tool into this usefully.

I'm willing to act as a guide. If someone else wants to join me, that'd be nice. :)
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:00 pm

Thanks, annis, for volunteering to be a guide! Self-nomination, accepted. :)

I spoke with Iván by e-mail today, and I think we're both really motivated and interested in getting this started. I think we'll wait a little while for at least a couple more people to join us. If you know anyone else who is interested in studying through this textbook or in joining you in guiding us, would you invite them aboard?

As per collations, I have the Perl collation software that is used on both GreekStudy and LatinStudy on the nxport.com server. (I'll send an invitation to GreekStudy tonight to see if we can get a bit of interest there.) I've got the software installed and already use it for a Hebrew study group that I guide.

Looking forward to this!

Jason
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:14 pm

Just an FYI - I sent the invitation to GreekStudy.

Hopefully it will get us a couple of φίλοι to study with. (I assume that φίλος means friend even in Homeric, right?)

Jason
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Re: Study Group

Postby Lex » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:51 pm

I would like to join the group, but I'm afraid real life might get in the way. (Let's just say the sour economy has been making my life less certain recently.)

But if you guys do this, especially with William as a guide, could you save your English-to-Greek translations, after chapter 13? Nobody else seems to have these available. Maybe you could share your answers with the whoever runs greekgeek.org? Hopefully he would put them on his site, along with the Greek-to-English translations he already has available.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:31 am

Lex wrote:I would like to join the group, but I'm afraid real life might get in the way. (Let's just say the sour economy has been making my life less certain recently.)

But if you guys do this, especially with William as a guide, could you save your English-to-Greek translations, after chapter 13? Nobody else seems to have these available. Maybe you could share your answers with the whoever runs greekgeek.org? Hopefully he would put them on his site, along with the Greek-to-English translations he already has available.

How 'bout you ask us when we get to that point? Right now, I just hope this will take off. I'm a little nervous about the study myself, not having nearly enough experience to pull this off, but quite hoping for a boost in confidence!
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Re: Study Group

Postby Bert » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:54 am

annis wrote:We used to use web-based software for work submissions and correcting, along with an email mailing list, but the author of that hasn't been to Textkit for some time. I can see if he's still around and prepared to support the software.


There is still one person who occasionally posts to Pharr-C using the GreekGeek software. It still is on-line but he has to enter the new members I guess.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:11 am

Bert wrote:There is still one person who occasionally posts to Pharr-C using the GreekGeek software. It still is on-line but he has to enter the new members I guess.

What's Pharr-C?
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Re: Study Group

Postby Bert » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:09 am

jaihare wrote:
Bert wrote:There is still one person who occasionally posts to Pharr-C using the GreekGeek software. It still is on-line but he has to enter the new members I guess.

What's Pharr-C?

The 3rd group to go through Pharr's book.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:52 am

I'd really appreciate it if someone else would put the schedule together. I'm not too good at that kind of thing. I've had issues with that in the past. What will we be doing? A lesson a week? How many lessons are in this book? Would the lesson include translations of the lines of the poem?

Thanks, guys, for all your motivation and encouragement already. :)

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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:22 am

I haven't seen the full book, maybe someone can speedly check the chapters and make the schedule, I guess every other day working could be nice.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Lex » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:12 pm

jaihare wrote:How many lessons are in this book? Would the lesson include translations of the lines of the poem?


77 lessons. At the end of that, you will have read and translated the entire first book of the Iliad.
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Re: Study Group

Postby edonnelly » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:06 pm

Lex wrote:But if you guys do this, especially with William as a guide, could you save your English-to-Greek translations, after chapter 13? Nobody else seems to have these available.


You can see the past study group translations on that site. Go to:

http://www.greekgeek.org/groups/login.htm

Login with username "guest" and no password.

Then you can browse previous study groups. Sometimes it's a little awkward to find answers, but if you, for example, choose the "pharr-d at textkit.com" study group, filter by "author" and choose "edonnelly" as the author, then you can enter the paragraph number (not the chapter number) for "lessonid" from exercises in Pharr to see all of my translations for a particular lesson. e.g., enter "84" and you will get all of my English->Greek translations for Lesson 15 (which happens to contain paragraph 84).

You can also choose to look by lesson instead. Choose Filter by "Lessonid.line" and enter "84.1" That will show you the different translations from the different members of the group for the first sentence of section 84. You can enter "84.2" etc. to see the others for that lesson.

It's a little awkward if you haven't used it before, but once I got into using that site I found it to be wonderful. In fact, you will be able to see not only the members' translations, but also the corrections by the group's guide. Not everyone made it all the way through, but I know that I have translations for every exercise in the book, so you could at least start there if you are looking for something (while mine may not be that great, they should still be helpful because our wonderful guide will have made corrections).
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Re: Study Group

Postby Lex » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:15 pm

edonnelly wrote:You can see the past study group translations on that site.....


In the immortal words of Johnny Carson, "I did not know that!"

Thank you very much. That should be a big help.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:16 pm

Just wondering how we're doing on the mailing list. If necessary, I can use my domain to host a non-archived mailing list. Or, we can create a Yahoo group specifically for the purpose of archiving. I don't know which way people normally do this on this site. Could you just let me know what's up on that end?

As far as the collation, I suggest we use the following abbreviations:

EG > English-to-Greek Translation
GE > Greek-to-English Translation

This means, the collation will have the form of:

# Jason Hare
# Lesson III (§11 & §12)
# Greek-to-English

GE 1 JH Good and bad plans.
GE 2 JH Who has a good plan?
κτλ.

# English-to-Greek

EG 1 JH βουλάων καλάων καὶ κακάων.
EG 2 JH βουλῇ καλῇ
κτλ.

END

What do you think?
Last edited by jaihare on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:22 pm

So far, for this group, I have the following participants:

Jason Hare
Iván García
Paul Baronowsky (from greekstudy)
Lex
William Annis (guide)

Would you guys like to get started quickly? Paul said he's ready whenever we are. We just need a schedule and a mailing list. Hope we can get it ready soon. I'm already getting antsy!! :)
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Re: Study Group

Postby Lex » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:04 pm

jaihare wrote:So far, for this group, I have the following participants:
...
Lex
...


Errr, you misunderstood me. When I said...

Lex wrote:I would like to join the group, but I'm afraid real life might get in the way.


... I meant that I can't commit to anything that may be time-consuming right now. I will have to content myself with lurking on the greekgeek.org site for now.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:10 pm

Lex wrote:
jaihare wrote:So far, for this group, I have the following participants:
...
Lex
...


Errr, you misunderstood me. When I said...

Lex wrote:I would like to join the group, but I'm afraid real life might get in the way.


... I meant that I can't commit to anything that may be time-consuming right now. I will have to content myself with lurking on the greekgeek.org site for now.

Woops... Didn't misunderstand you, just didn't finish reading what you were saying. ;)
I saw, "I would like to join the group" and got excited. Didn't bother reading the rest. LOL

Sorry 'bout that!
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:53 am

I'm ready, maybe a working way could be also Google Docs.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:25 pm

Ivansalgadogarcia wrote:I'm ready, maybe a working way could be also Google Docs.

What are you talking about? What would we do with Google docs? I mean, I could create files and share them, but what exactly do you suggest we do with them?
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:27 pm

jaihare wrote:Jason Hare
Iván García
Paul Baronowsky (from greekstudy)
William Annis (guide)

Revised list. Removed Lex, because of my misunderstanding.

Should we get some more interest stirred before starting, or are you guys basically ready? I am too excited to hold off for much longer!!
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:34 pm

I've never used a mail listing :| , hehehehehehe, may we can use google docs to upload the greek texts and write comments, each one can use different colors, etc., does anybody know how the old groups here worked? :) 8)
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Re: Study Group

Postby Ivansalgadogarcia » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:35 pm

BTW, I can start right now, i'm excited too. :P
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:42 pm

Normally, you send your work to someone who volunteers to collate it. You submit it in an agreed-to format. I suggested that we use GE for "Greek to English" and EG for "English to Greek." The software (developed by Kurt Lougheed) works so that you first put the section marker (either EG or GE, in this case), then the exercise number and then your initials. There are more details on this that I can get for you. I have volunteered to do the collating.

Basically, what this means is that for each lesson, you will send me a Unicode e-mail with your contribution in two sections, the Greek-to-English section and the English-to-Greek section. I will collate them with the software and send them out to everyone on the mailing list (which may or may not be archived, depending on how we decide to do it). Does this make sense? It's generally how things are done with this type of study.

The only problem is when it comes to poetry analyzing. How do we mark long and short syllables? How do we analyze meter and check with each other? Annis, have you done this type of thing before?

Regards,
Jason
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Re: Study Group

Postby Adelheid » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:09 pm

I would like to pitch in too as a guide. I have guided the Pharr-D group (which didn't last that long) and would like to get involved again.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:37 pm

Adelheid wrote:I would like to pitch in too as a guide. I have guided the Pharr-D group (which didn't last that long) and would like to get involved again.

One more nomination accepted!! Brings the group to:

Guides:
Adelheid
Annis

Participants:
Jason (JH)
Iván (IG)
Paul (PB)

Hopefully more people will find interest as we get going.

I'm cleaning my room now (rearranging and such), and I'll start on the schedule as soon as I get things arranged here.
Jason Hare
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Study Group

Postby edonnelly » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:00 pm

Adelheid wrote:I have guided the Pharr-D group (which didn't last that long)


!! You got at least two of us all the way to the end. It's true that once you get really far along (especially once you pass the point where there are no more G->E exercises) you rely a lot less on the guide.

I will say it looks like this group is going to have two fantastic guides, so I really hope the participants stick with this. By far and away the toughest part is the beginning (first 20 lessons or so). Good luck to all!
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: Study Group

Postby annis » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:28 pm

jaihare wrote:Normally, you send your work to someone who volunteers to collate it. You submit it in an agreed-to format. I suggested that we use GE for "Greek to English" and EG for "English to Greek." The software (developed by Kurt Lougheed)


We've never used that software. The very first lists had people just email stuff to the mailing list, and subsequent groups used Paul's fantastic web-based system, which I think we should use for this group, too (which we'll call pharr-e, the 5th Pharr group for Textkit). It takes a little bit of tinkering with to get the hang of, but once you've got it the advantages become apparent.

I have requested the mailing list. I would ask that we still hold off at least a week before starting the group, perhaps a few more days than that, so we can get the word out and maybe attract a few more people.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Study Group

Postby annis » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:29 pm

Adelheid wrote:I would like to pitch in too as a guide.


Yay!
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:32 pm

annis wrote:We've never used that software. The very first lists had people just email stuff to the mailing list, and subsequent groups used Paul's fantastic web-based system, which I think we should use for this group, too (which we'll call pharr-e, the 5th Pharr group for Textkit). It takes a little bit of tinkering with to get the hang of, but once you've got it the advantages become apparent.

I have requested the mailing list. I would ask that we still hold off at least a week before starting the group, perhaps a few more days than that, so we can get the word out and maybe attract a few more people.

That software is used both on LatinStudy and on GreekStudy, and it's really easy to use. Could you show us the results of the software you're talking about? Is it at all intuitive? I'd like to at least look it over and see how it works and such.

Thanks,
Jason
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Study Group

Postby annis » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:48 pm

jaihare wrote:That software is used both on LatinStudy and on GreekStudy, and it's really easy to use. Could you show us the results of the software you're talking about? Is it at all intuitive? I'd like to at least look it over and see how it works and such.


See Ed's post.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: Study Group

Postby Pommy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:51 pm

If you guys are still taking people I'm in =)!
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:54 pm

Pommy wrote:If you guys are still taking people I'm in =)!

Definitely! And if you know anyone else, the roll is still building!! :)

Guides
adelheid
annis

Participants
jaihare
ivansalgadogarcia
paulb
pommy
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Study Group

Postby jaihare » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:05 pm

annis wrote:See Ed's post.

OK, now I see the benefit of this software. :) Thanks!
Jason Hare
jaihare@gmail.com

ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Bert » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:42 pm

edonnelly wrote:
I will say it looks like this group is going to have two fantastic guides, ......

I agree. I speak from experience. William Annis was one of the three guides when I was a participant in Pharr-a. Adelheid started guiding Pharr-d when I was one of the guides of Pharr-c.
-d overtook -c so I often logged into -d as guest to make use of her comments when I ran into a bit of trouble so, without her knowledge, she kind of was my guide as well.
The discouraging thing as guide is drop-outs. Not a few drop-outs ,that is inevitable, but drop-outs to the extent that kill the group.
Both these guides have seen a group to completion. Here's hoping Pharr-e will be successful as well.
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Re: Study Group

Postby Pommy » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:48 pm

By the way, I am still in school and it is tough. I basically just wanted to learn a little Greek because im taking it next year and I want to get a jump start .. So I might not be able to go as fast as you guys, is it ok if I still join?
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