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Short Compositions from my Notebook

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Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby Skyhawk4584 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:24 pm

I am not a student, this is not my homework. I am teaching myself Latin and have begun to try to put sentences together. Please check my work and give me your comments: I'll include my sentence in latin and what I intend it to say.

Regards

incepi hodie, compositionis sententias latine discere.

"Today I started to learn composition of latin sentences"

Ante diem sextum Nonas Martias

"March 2"
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:02 am

Hi,

You have "compositionis" in the genitive but that won't work because it's the object of "discere" -- it needs to be in the accusative, and then "sententias" needs to be in the genitive. And you get something like

incepi hodie compositionem sententiarum latinarum discere.

I changed "latine" to the adjective to agree with "sententiarum" -- it's a more literal translation of your English but more importantly I'm not sure if the "latine" can be used with a noun since it's an adverb. Somebody more knowledgeable than me will have to say.

The other possibility, is instead of using "compositio", use the verb "compono" and then nothing else has to change:

incepi hodie sententias latine componere discere.
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby Skyhawk4584 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:06 pm

gratias ago modus.irrealo

hoc est novum opus scriptum mei:

"Ante diem quartum Nonas Martias,
didici ut, nisi fallor, licet mihi sum in solo membro aliquot infinitivum utere.”


I'm providing an explanation of my choices so that you can understand why I chose to do certain things and correct any mistakes you may see - just because this book I bought (teach yourself latin dictionary) says something does not mean it is correct or I am using its advice correctly.

My latin book mentioned I should use the dative with the "gratias ego" construction of thank you - I assigned you second declension male since I do not know how personal names are assigned to declensions. I am trying to use the Roman dating system of counting days to Nonae, Idus and Kalendae which I understand place ordinal numbers into the accusitive. I used all nominative for my introductory sentence because I recalled from somewhere that is appropriate when you are saying something "is" something else. My latin dictionary provided "opus scriptum (n)" as the latin for "composition" and I placed my pronoun in the genitive.

I broke my actual composition into three clauses "i learned that" "unless I am mistaken" and "I am permitted to use several infinitives in one clause"

I kept everything in the indicative but I question whether I should have used the subjunctive for "use" because it expresses a possibility or option for composition I justified the indicative because I am commenting that it is a fact (I think) I am allowed to use multiple infinitives.

I placed "I learned" into the perfect tense because it is a completed action, "unless I am mistaken" was actually a phrase I borrowed from a website listing useful phrases for stringing latin words together (if anyone is interested I'd be happy to post it); and I used a construction of "I am allowed" that my book provided "licet + dat of person permitted" and the infinitive, for "in one clause" i wrote "in solo membro" keeping it in the ablative because of the action being "in" and membrum (n) was provided as the word for clause in my book. I might have made up the word "infinitivus" for 'infinitive' but I vaguely recall that being the correct word. I place that into the accusative and could not find a way to decline my adjective "aliquot." I made "utor" an infinitive and placed that at the end "to use"

Thank you for whatever assistance you may provide. I hope to become proficient enough in time that I may return the favor with new posters.

Regards
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby petitor » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:41 am

Skyhawk4584 wrote:hoc est novum opus scriptum mei

"mei" should be "meum": the possessive adjective "meus, mea, meum", like all adjectives, must agree with the noun it is modifying, in this case the singular neuter "opus scriptum". "mei" as a genitive (it's also the nominative masculine plural) really means "of me/my". You would use the genitive if the noun is also in the genitive, as in "operis scripti mei" = "of my composition", i.e. possession shifts from you to the composition itself.

Skyhawk4584 wrote:didici ut, nisi fallor, licet mihi sum in solo membro aliquot infinitivum utere

I would use an indirect statement:

didici, nisi fallor, mihi liciturum esse in uno membro compluribus infinitivis uti
I have learned that, unless I am wrong, it would be permitted for me to use several infinitives in one clause

In case you haven't gotten to this yet, an indirect statement always occurs after verbs of saying, thinking, and sensory and mental perception. In English, indirect statements are initiated by the word "that". To form an indirect statement in Latin, the subject of the statement is placed in the accusative and the verb in the infinitive. Here's another example.

scio te posse Latinam discere
I know that you can learn Latin

You're book will be able to describe indirect statements more throroughly than I can here.

Here are some other notes:

"ut", in the sense of "that", is reserved for "result clauses", and is not applicable here. Here's an example of such a result clause:

satis didici ut nunc Latinam legere possim
I have learned enough [such] that I can now read Latin

"licet" comes from the verb "licet, licere, licui, licitus" = "it is permitted"; so, "licet mihi" literally means "it is permitted for me". Therefore, "sum" is not required, since "licet" is a verb itself. "liciturum esse" is the future infinitive.

"uno membro": "solo" carries more the connotation of "alone, singularly, only", whereas "uno" refers to an actual quantity.

"compluribus infinitivis" (for "aliquot infinitivum"): This is in the ablative (plural) because "uti" (see below) takes an ablative object. "compluribus" comes from the adjective "complus, compluris" = "several"; "aliquot", which does not decline, more commonly means "some [amount] of, a few of".

"uti": this the proper infinitive of "utor, uti, usus" (it's a deponent verb).

Skyhawk4584 wrote:I might have made up the word "infinitivus" for 'infinitive'

Close, but "infinitivum" is the correct term, and it's a neuter, i.e. the nominative and accusative are both "infinitivum".
ignorantes latinam deo minore nati
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:42 pm

Skyhawk4584 wrote:gratias ago modus.irrealo

Dative is right, but since irrealis is more or less a Latin word, of the third declension, the dative would be modus.irreali, or modo.irreali if you wanted to decline both parts. But what you wrote technically means "I thank modus.irrealis" -- if you want to address the person you're thanking, I believe you'd use the vocative for the name, e.g. "gratias [tibi] ago, Brute."

About dates, that's something I'm not entirely sure about but there was I think a topic about this in the Learning Latin subforum, which might be helpful.

Nothing to add to what petitor said except,
petitor wrote:
Skyhawk4584 wrote:I might have made up the word "infinitivus" for 'infinitive'

Close, but "infinitivum" is the correct term, and it's a neuter, i.e. the nominative and accusative are both "infinitivum".

Actually, the masculine is right, because it's "infinitivus [modus]".
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby petitor » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:58 am

modus.irrealis wrote:Actually, the masculine is right, because it's "infinitivus [modus]".

Ah, yes indeed it is. :oops:

plurimas tibi, mode.irreale, ob rem emendandam explicatam ago gratias.

And my apologies to Skyhawk4584, if I had misled you.

curate ut valeatis.
ignorantes latinam deo minore nati
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby Skyhawk4584 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:31 pm

gratias vobis

"fessus semper sentio et credo me ferliam haburus esse."

I feel constantly exhausted and I think I ought to take a vacation.

I'm trying to use indirect sentences and other sentences that force me to use multiple verbs. I used the future infinitive of habeo and placed “me” in accusative because I used an indirect statement. I did not know what to do with Ferliae. I was the original subject which now must be accusative so I added in “me” but because “me” became accusative I had no home for Ferliae. Is Ferliae also accusative? I didn’t know how to indicate “ought” I think it might be implied in future habeo, is it possible to have a future subjunctive?

Questions, for an indirect statement what happens to the direct object of the indirect statement? The subject becomes accusative so what of the original accusative?
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby petitor » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:23 am

Skyhawk4584 wrote:credo me ferliam haburus esse

ferliam: I’m not familiar with this spelling, but the Oxford Latin Dictionary lists “feriae, -arum” (fem. pl.), which I will use here.

haburus: should be “habiturum”. The future participle of “habeo” is “habiturus, habitura, habiturum”; also, it would need to be in the masculine accusative (or "habituram" for feminine) to agree with the subject of the indirect statement, “me”.

However, while “habere” works for a literal translation, a more common expression is “ferias ago”, so:

puto mihi ferias agendas esse

This example uses the passive periphrastic (i.e. “ferias agendas esse”) to express obligation: the future infinitive merely states that something that will happen in the future, but not the necessity of it occurring; “ferias habiturum esse” means “I will have a vacation”. Refer to your book (or ask again) for details on the passive periphrastic and its construction. Briefly, the passive periphrastic (a.k.a. secondary periphrastic) uses the gerundive + “esse”; the gerundive of “ago” is “agendus, agenda, agendum”. Compare “Carthago delenda est” = “Carthage must be destroyed”. As such, the above translation would literally mean "I think a vacation ought to be done for me".

puto: from “putare”; an alternative for “credo”, which more commonly means “I believe/have faith”.

mihi: the passive periphrastic uses the dative to specify the agent responsible for executing the action, “tibi Carthago delenda est” = “you must destroy Carthage”.

ferias: accusative, because it is the subject of the indirect statement.

agendas: accusative gerundive agreeing with “ferias”.

Skyhawk4584 wrote:I didn’t know how to indicate “ought”

The passive periphrastic is one way of expressing obligation. Another way (among others still) is to use “debeo”:

credo me debere ferias agere

In contrast to the first example, “me” is the subject, as opposed to “ferias” (which is now the object). Compare with the direct statement:

ferias agere debeo
I ought to go on vacation

Here are some others. These are impersonal verbs that take either a dative or accusative.

dative + opus est + infinitive = “there is need”, e.g. “tibi opus est adesse” = “there is need for you to be present”
accusative + oportet* + infinitive = “it behooves”
dative + necesse est + infinitive = “it is necessary”

(* "oportet" comes from "oportere".)

Skyhawk4584 wrote:is it possible to have a future subjunctive?

There are only four tenses in the subjunctive: present, imperfect, perfect, and pluperfect.

In many instances, verbs in the subjunctive are often translated into English with auxiliaries like “would”, “might”, and “may”, as well as phrases like “in order to” and “so that”; all of which imply a conditional future state. There are, of course, constructs, such as indirect questions and result clauses, which do not employ auxliary verbs, but these go beyond the scope of this post.

Skyhawk4584 wrote:Questions, for an indirect statement what happens to the direct object of the indirect statement? The subject becomes accusative so what of the original accusative?

The direct object remains in the accusative:

eum ferias egisse scio
I know that he was on vacation

me Latinam loqui scivit
He knew that I spoke Latin
ignorantes latinam deo minore nati
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Re: Short Compositions from my Notebook

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:31 pm

Since petitor did all the heavy work in his excellent post, I get to make only a few minor comments.

Skyhawk4584 wrote:"fessus semper sentio et credo me ferliam haburus esse."

I don't believe that sentio can be used that way, as a copula. If you want to use sentio you'd say something like "lassitudinem sentio" but I suspect the usual way in Latin would be to just use the verb and say "fessus sum."

Questions, for an indirect statement what happens to the direct object of the indirect statement? The subject becomes accusative so what of the original accusative?

And you have to be careful, because this creates an opportunity for ambiguity, since word order does not necessarily tell you which of the accusatives is the subject and which is the direct object. There's a story about Pyrrhus who consulted the Oracle at Delphi about attacking the Romans and the oracle responded, "aio te, Aeacida, Romanos vincere posse" which he took to mean "I say that you, descendant of Aeacus, can defeat the Romans" but it could also mean "I say that the Romans can defeat you, descendant of Aeacus" which is how things actually turned out.

And about the (active) future participle, there's a very easy rule for forming it:-take the perfect participle and change the final -us to -urus. So for habeo, you have habitus, therefore habiturus. Similarly, ago, actus, acturus or verto, versus, versurus. I think the only exceptions are sum which has no perfect participle and you just have to learn the future participle futurus and morior which has perfect participle mortuus but future participle moriturus.
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