Textkit Logo

Help on translation plz

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Help on translation plz

Postby heiss » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:52 pm

I'm looking for a Greek scholar who can accurately translate the following phrase.
This is a Lucianic Version of the Septuagint. Because it is a translation from Hebrew it is somewhat awkward.

kai eipen o laos ouk exeleusei oti ean fugontes fugwmen "ou sthsetai en hmin kardia"

Sorry don't know yet how to type in Greek in a proper font.

I'm particularly troubled by the last quoted part.
The first part would be "and the people said you shall not go out because if we flee a fleeing..."

Then, what does the remaining part mean?
Is it correct to that kardia should be the subject of this phrase given that it is nominative?
Then should it be rendered "the heart will not stand upon us?"
There is no way that kardia could serve here as an object rather than subject, right?

Your help would be very appreciated. Thanks.
heiss
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Help on translation plz

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:57 pm

Not quite a scholar, but I can tell you that you're right that καρδία (kardia) has to be the subject of στήσεται (sthsetai) and cannot be the object. ἐν (en) can have various meanings but "in" or "among" seem to fit best here, and there's no definite article with καρδία (kardia), so literally it's something like "(a) heart will not stand in/among us" or taking into account the word order, it's like "there will stand (or be) no heart in/among us."

But the φυγόντες φύγωμεν (fugontes fugwmen), which literally is "we flee having fled", seems to me to be translationese, and I know ἐν (en) tends to be used like the corresponding Hebrew preposition (be I think) even though it has a wider usage than the Greek preposition does, so I'm not willing to rule out a meaning like "upon." And I'm not sure exactly what metaphorical meaning "heart" has here (I don't want to let modern usage mislead me and anyway, I can see a few possibilities that make sense), but I suspect that too would go back to the Hebrew word.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Help on translation plz

Postby heiss » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:37 am

modus.irrealis wrote:Not quite a scholar, but I can tell you that you're right that καρδία (kardia) has to be the subject of στήσεται (sthsetai) and cannot be the object. ἐν (en) can have various meanings but "in" or "among" seem to fit best here, and there's no definite article with καρδία (kardia), so literally it's something like "(a) heart will not stand in/among us" or taking into account the word order, it's like "there will stand (or be) no heart in/among us."

But the φυγόντες φύγωμεν (fugontes fugwmen), which literally is "we flee having fled", seems to me to be translationese, and I know ἐν (en) tends to be used like the corresponding Hebrew preposition (be I think) even though it has a wider usage than the Greek preposition does, so I'm not willing to rule out a meaning like "upon." And I'm not sure exactly what metaphorical meaning "heart" has here (I don't want to let modern usage mislead me and anyway, I can see a few possibilities that make sense), but I suspect that too would go back to the Hebrew word.


Thanks for your reply. Yes, it has everything to do with its Hebrew basis. Hebrew simply tells, "people would not put their heart upon us," meaning they would not care. I was puzzled why Greek changed the "heart", originally an object, to the subject. But in fact your explanation helps me make sense of it. Thanks a lot!
heiss
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Help on translation plz

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:39 pm

Perhaps the Hebrew text behind this translation was different from the current Hebrew text and the one behind the Septuagint (which may have been the same in this case). I managed to track the passage and if you look at http://books.google.ca/books?id=7ihVAAA ... #PPA316,M1 later in the verse it has οὐ θήσουσιν εἰς ἡμᾶς καρδίαν which is very similar to the Septuagint's οὐ θήσουσιν ἐφ' ἡμᾶς καρδίαν which occurs twice in the verse. Now I can't understand the Hebrew but I can see at http://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/online- ... 854095a7d/ that it also has the same phrase occur twice, so it would be odd, I'd say, if Lucian translated the same phrase in two totally different ways in the same verse. So it does look to me like Lucian had a different Hebrew text before him than the one we have today.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests