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hic haec hoc?

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hic haec hoc?

Postby wazabell » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:18 am

i don't understnad how this works what so ever does anyone else?
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby mariek » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:05 am

<br />Hi Wazabell, <br /><br />I don't understand hic haec hoc yet, either, but that's not surprising since I just started learning Latin and haven't yet gotten to this topic yet. However, I'm sure many others here can help you with it.<br /><br />I just wanted to welcome you to Textkit. How long have you been studying Latin?<br /><br />Don't forget to take a look at the Latin grammars and readers available on this site; just click on Learn Latin above.<br /><br />The Learning Latin forum is primarily for discussing the Latin language. Please use the Open Board for any off topic discussions.<br /><br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby phil » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:35 am

Hi Wazabell,<br /><br />I'm fairly new to Latin too - that's the good thing about this forum; everytime I've posted a question thinking "I must be stupid not to know this', I find that others have been having the same problem!<br /><br />Anyway, back to your question, I've just done hic,haec hoc, so let's see if I've learned it properly:<br /><br />Basically, it means 'this' or 'these' e.g. 'this book', 'these boys' etc. But because Latin nouns all have gender (masculine/feminine or neuter), we need three versions of 'this'. For example. puer (boy) is masculine, so we'd use 'hic puer' for 'this boy'. Similarly, puella is feminine, so 'haec puella'. Time (tempus) is neuter, so 'hoc tempus' means 'this time'.<br /><br />Then we need plural versions (this vs these) so we get 'hi pueri', these boys, and 'hae puellae' these girls.<br /><br />Then you need to add in all the cases (accusative, dative etc). So, if we give something to the boys, it would be 'his pueris'- both 'these' and 'boys' are plural datives.<br /><br />Basically, all you need to know is that the version of hic/haec/hoc you choose must be the same gender and case as the noun you're talking about.<br /><br />Once you've understood this (and it's not as difficult as it sounds), you'll be ready for iste,ista,istud and ille,illa,illud!<br /><br />Hope this helps<br />Phil
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby mariek » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:40 am

<br />Thanks for the explanation Phil. I love how latin is so "regular". I wasn't surprised at all about how there are masculine, feminine, and neuter versions, and how each of these three can be declined for Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, and Abl.<br /><br />How does hic haec hoc compare with is ea id? I haven't covered is ea id yet in my M&F book, but I remember learning about it when I was working through BLD. is ea id also means "this", doesn't it?<br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby klewlis » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:42 am

ugh I still get all those ones all mixed up! <br /><br />Time for some review and drilling on those maybe... :)
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby mariek » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:47 am

<br />Perhaps someone would be kind enough to write a Tutorial on all this...<br /><br />Hint hint hint hint ! ;D<br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby phil » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:57 am

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=736;start=0#7179 date=1064806855]<br /><br />is ea id also means "this", doesn't it?<br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ummm, I think it means more sort of 'a' as in "There is a book on the table", you would use 'is liber' when you want to slightly emphasize the book. The phrase I remember is 'weak demonstrative', if that helps.<br /><br />Perhaps it's time for someone who knows what they're talking about to take over from me!<br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby benissimus » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:07 am

I think is/ea/id is more along the lines of "that". It's weaker than ille or iste, and can be translated any number of ways. Just think of that kooky phrase "How do you them apples?"
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby mariek » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:43 am

<br />I haven't come across ille or iste yet. I'm afraid I'll be in for a rough ride when I get there... :-\<br /><br />As for the kooky phrase "How do you like them apples?" ... it makes me think of a scene from the movie Good Will Hunting.<br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby whiteoctave » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:07 pm

is, ea, id &c. is generally used of "he", "she" or "it"&c. although was occasionally used as "that" when relating to a common (as opposed to proper) noun that has been mentioned earlier on in the passage. is, ea, id &c. is not used as a substantive (noun) meaning "this" or "that". It is the least emphatic of these three demonstrative pronouns.<br />hic, haec, hoc &c. is generally used of "this" relating to something near the speaker, either physically or figuratively, such as "this love of mine" or "this room". It can aslo mean "he","she" or "it" &c. but is used such less commonly than is, ea, id &c. and more commonly in speech than general prose. When used as a substantive in itself, such as "I hate this", the same rules of closeness of object apply.<br />ille, illa, illud &c. is used of things further away than hic, haec, hoc &c. If you think about how you use "this" and "that" in English, the former is used of things close to the speaker, the latter of things further away or close to a third person. Such is the case in Latin. Once again (surprise, surprise) ille, illa, illud &c. can be used for the pronouns, "he","she" and "it" &c., but this is the rarest such use of all three demonstrative pronouns.<br />ille, illa, illud &c. is used in comparions and rhetoric of things of less importance than hic, haec, hoc. hic...ille...means "the former...the latter..." as in such comparisons Romans regarded the former as emphatic.<br />Apologies for this confusign explanation!<br /><br />~dave<br /><br />~dave
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby mariek » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:39 pm

<br />Thanks, Dave! I've filed these subtleties away in my "grammar" notes so I'll have them with me when I start learning all this.<br /><br />
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Episcopus » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:00 pm

The Cambridge kid has it on lock. <br /><br />Alternatively see the excellent clear explanation of Dr. D'Ooge. His book is available from the site. (And I didn't capitalize the "His" because it came after a full stop) ;)
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Carola » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:06 pm

I often just think of it in a simple way of, say, holding up the book you are reading and saying "I like this book" using "is", and then being in a bookshop pointing to one out of many books and saying "I like this book" (this one out of a group) using "hic". I often find visualising a phrase helps me understand it better. (Maybe I'm just a slow learner!)
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:01 am

And iste is something that is far from the speaker but close to the addressee. <br /><br />i.e. Bring that book (near you) to me. ::)<br /><br /><br />It is very frequently used derogatorily<br /><br />i.e. Not that book! >:(
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby klewlis » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:34 am

I love how you emphasize your examples with emoticons.
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:40 am

I love the way he always seems to be able to explain everything-and explain it simply! Thanks, Benissimus.
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:42 am

Haha thanks guys :D
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:44 am

You're welcome! :)
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:43 pm

D'Ooge's explanation is brilliant; he does it graphically. <br /><br />Did I mention that? :P
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:50 pm

But D'Ooge is not groovy.
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:14 pm

If he is not groovy, then nor are you; less thus.
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Re:hic haec hoc?

Postby Keesa » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:01 pm

Have we disintegrated into personal attacks? Tsk, tsk, tsk. <br /><br />D'Ooge does a wonderful job of explaining Latin, I'm sure, but he never did give me a link to a Jane Austen website. Besides that, people tend to think you're crazy if you sit around asking a book questions. (Why they don't look at you equally strangely when you're talking to a computer screen may well be one of the great mysteries of life, such as a recent shoe breakthrough at John's Hopkins Research Institute. [It's the left ones that flip, and the right ones that flop.]) <br /><br />On the other hand, Benissimus might begin to be annoyed if he had to sit down and spell out each lesson, individually, to any one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have gotten the same information from Latin for Beginners over the years. Considering that the book is out of copyright, the number may well be in the tens of thousands by now. So, you see, each one has their advantages that the other one doesn't have. As I like to say, "Equal, but different." <br /><br />Is groovy still in use? I thought it had left with the hippies. (Although, I still use it. :))
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