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Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

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Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby vir litterarum » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:27 am

Mutinae cum obsiderentur et gens ad oppugnandarum urbium artes rudis, pigerrima eadem ad militaria opera, segnis intactis adsideret muris, simulari coeptum de pace agi;

This construction seems strange to me. Is "pigerrima eadem" an ablative absolute, or is it merely another attribute of "gens"? If so, why is there no conjunction connecting the two attributes?
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby adrianus » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:03 pm

Salve vir litterarum

It's an attribute of "gens", I would say. Here's a justification after the fact: had he said "et pigerrima" it would tie the phrase to "ad oppugnandarum urbium artes rudis" through the adjective "rudis". "Eadem" (as adverb "likewise", or even "the same people" you could argue) emphasizes a new clause linked to "ad militaria opera".

Ecce argumentum à posteriori: "et pigerrima" dicere, id clausulam ad verba "ad oppugnandarum urbium artes rudis" adjungere possit (viâ adjectivi similis, "rudis" videlicet). "Eadem" autem verbo utere (quod adverbium est,—vel hîc quidem pronomen, si velis) novam clausulam/commam conclamat, ad "ad militaria opera" conjunctam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby vir litterarum » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:50 pm

so "eadem" can be used as an adverb?
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby adrianus » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:44 pm

Yes. Ità. Vide L&S / Collins / OLD.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby vir litterarum » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:12 am

I know the OLD says that it should be translated as "and also," but I just don't understand how "eadem" came to be used adverbially, especially when it still agrees with a noun in number, gender, and case.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby adrianus » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:22 am

When used adverbially, it agrees with an implied word, I guess,—"eâdem viâ", possibly. A number of adverbs are like that, coming from the ablative case. (Note, the adverb has a long "a")
Ut adverbium, conjecto id olim nomini insinuato, sicut "viâ", exempli gratiâ, adjecisse. Simile plurum adverbiorum est, quae ablativo casu derivata sunt. (Adverbium "â" longam habet, nota.)

Nor need it necessarily be an adverb here, remember,—although I believe it is.
Memoriâ tene, id hîc adverbium necessariè esse non oportet,—etsi id esse credo.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby Imber Ranae » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:51 am

It's not adverbial, actually, though it's best to translate it with an adverb in English. Eadem is nominative and agrees with gens. It literally means "the same", and it's being used as a way of reaffirming the previous subject emphatically. The closest English equivalent to the sense is the adverb "likewise". Idem is commonly used in the nominative this way.

"When they were besieged at Mutina and a tribe unskilled in the methods of attacking cities, and likewise [the same] lazy at military operations, sat sluggish[ly] at the base of the untouched walls..."

I don't really understand the last clause, though. I suppose one of those passive infinitives to be an historical infinitive, with coeptum as subject, but I don't know which, or how to make sense of the other. The word coeptum also seems vague in meaning. This is a tricky sentence, to be sure.
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby adrianus » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:29 pm

I did say above that you could read it in both those exact ways. How do you know it isn't adverbial here, Imber Ranae?
Nonnè suprà dixi id illis duobus modis legi posse? Quomodò, Imber Ranae, scis id hîc adverbium non esse?

"simulari coeptum de pace agi" = (supine with passive infinitive of action is like a future infinitive; supinum cum infinitivo actionis passivo est simile infinitivi futuri) "to be going to initiate [proceedings] about peace to be pretended" = "to be pretending to be going to initiate [proceedings] about peace" = "as if they were about to sue for peace", dicam.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:08 am

vir litterarum wrote:I know the OLD says that it should be translated as "and also," but I just don't understand how "eadem" came to be used adverbially, especially when it still agrees with a noun in number, gender, and case.

Greek has lots of words like that, e.g. ἑκών agrees with the noun in number, gender, and case, but is normally translated "willingly", which are at heart just predicate adjectives, which Greek at least prefers a lot more than English.

About coeptum, isn't Latin one of the languages that when "begin" is used with a passive infinitive, it can also become passive? I read it here as being "simulari coeptum [est] de pace agi" with a (double?) impersonal passive, to mean something like "there began feigning that there was negotiation for peace", i.e. "they began pretending to negotiate for peace." But I'm not sure if that's likely or even possible.
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby vir litterarum » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:26 am

modus.irrealis wrote
About coeptum, isn't Latin one of the languages that when "begin" is used with a passive infinitive, it can also become passive? I read it here as being "simulari coeptum [est] de pace agi" with a (double?) impersonal passive, to mean something like "there began feigning that there was negotiation for peace", i.e. "they began pretending to negotiate for peace." But I'm not sure if that's likely or even possible.


See the note on this page by Zumpt for the usage of the passive forms of "coepi"


http://books.google.com/books?id=UE0QAA ... #PPA197,M1
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby Essorant » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:03 pm

I am somewhat inclined to treat coeptum as a noun:

simulari coeptum de pace agi "to be pretended to be led (to) a beginning of peace".
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Re: Ab Urbe Condita 21.25

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:55 pm

vir litterarum wrote:See the note on this page by Zumpt for the usage of the passive forms of "coepi"

Thanks -- so in Latin you could say "the house was begun to be built."
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