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Latin translation

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Latin translation

Postby CFstar » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:15 pm

Hi there

I am looking to get a tattoo and want 'To love and Cherish'. I want to ensure that it is correct both spelling and gramatically, could anybody please help, i would be forever gratefull.

Many thanks
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Kasper » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:55 am

"Amare et fovere" is one option.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby CFstar » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:58 am

hey kasper

what exactly does Amare et fovere translate too? I had been told Ut amen et foveam, could you tell me what this translates too? I really appreciate your help, i have heard of so many people getting a tattoo and ending up with wrong spelling or it being gramatically incorrect.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby annis » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:09 am

CFstar wrote:I really appreciate your help, i have heard of so many people getting a tattoo and ending up with wrong spelling or it being gramatically incorrect.


While I have no doubts about the abilities of Textkittens to eventually produce a good rendition of this, for a tattoo you really should spend the cash and hire a professional. Textkit isn't a free translation site, but a site for people learning Latin and Greek. You request will be treated as an exercise. ;)

Kasper's rendition is with infinitives, "to love and to cherish." The other one — ut amem I trust — means "in order that I love, etc."
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re: Latin translation

Postby CFstar » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:27 am

many thanks, i didnt intend to insult by asking for a translation on here. but i do appreciate your response and will not post on here again!
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Re: Latin translation

Postby annis » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:28 am

CFstar wrote:many thanks, i didnt intend to insult by asking for a translation on here. but i do appreciate your response and will not post on here again!


Post all you want! Just keep in mind what Textkit is and isn't.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Kasper » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:44 am

Yes, as Will has said, I am only a self-taught student. Asking a bunch of strangers on the net for the text of your tattoo in a language you don't understand will always be a very risky business, a fortiori on a forum like this! This is why I qualified my translation as I did. Not that I think my translation is wrong though!

Ut amem et foveam = so that / in order that I may love and cherish.

Latin grammar is more specific than English, and you may want to spend some time thinking about exactly what you want to say.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:30 pm

Perhaps also

amatum fotumque
amatum ac fotum
amatum et fotum
amatum atque fotum


= in order to love and cherish

I think that you should describe more explicitly what your tattoo should mean. For example "to love and to cherish (a chlild)" possibly in Latin requires different verbs than "to love and to cherish (my life)" or than "to love (dogs) and to cherish (the memory of my first one)".
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Kasper » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:54 am

Hehe! I would like to see you explain the difference between those 4 options Swth\r!
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Latin translation

Postby timeodanaos » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:24 am

Wouldn't the supines there only work with verbs of motion? 'eo amatum fotumque' I go in order to love and cherish.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:31 am

Kasper wrote:Hehe! I would like to see you explain the difference between those 4 options Swth\r!


Hehe! :D You have to laugh at that! :D But think about it not in linguistic terms but in terms of a tattoo icon. Shape, form, size may matter! :wink:

timeodanaos wrote:Wouldn't the supines there only work with verbs of motion? 'eo amatum fotumque' I go in order to love and cherish.


Yes, in deed!
The same with an infinitive, shouldn't it be depended on a verb? Or with a final clause; shouldn't it be depended on an another clause? What conjunctive should we use?

Those are question of linguistic, not of "tattoo-istic" interest. :wink:
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Re: Latin translation

Postby vastor » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:24 pm

CFstar wrote:Hi there

I am looking to get a tattoo and want 'To love and Cherish'. I want to ensure that it is correct both spelling and gramatically, could anybody please help, i would be forever gratefull.

Many thanks


It really depends if you want a literal translation (preserving the present active infinitive tense and mood) or a more imaginative one (which probably wouldn't translate well back into english).

For a more literal translation, I would choose:

Amare et Cupere

Meaning to love and covet. Personally, I think the literal versions are more appropriate in this case.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby timeodanaos » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:04 pm

Swth\r wrote:
timeodanaos wrote:Wouldn't the supines there only work with verbs of motion? 'eo amatum fotumque' I go in order to love and cherish.


Yes, in deed!
The same with an infinitive, shouldn't it be depended on a verb? Or with a final clause; shouldn't it be depended on an another clause? What conjunctive should we use?

Those are question of linguistic, not of "tattoo-istic" interest. :wink:

Infinitives are nouns and need not depend on a verb. The infinitive of any verb can, as an indeclinable neuter noun, denote 'the action of ...-ing'.

Supines are a certain sort of frozen noun-form of the verb that can only be used in conjunction with verbs of motion.

That's why I objected. 'To love and cherish' can't be meant to denote something along the lines of "I got this tattoo in order to love and cherish", that isn't feasible. The only possibility is denoting "the action of loving and cherishing", correctly expressed by the infinitives.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:09 am

timeodanaos wrote:
Swth\r wrote:
timeodanaos wrote:Wouldn't the supines there only work with verbs of motion? 'eo amatum fotumque' I go in order to love and cherish.


Yes, in deed!
The same with an infinitive, shouldn't it be depended on a verb? Or with a final clause; shouldn't it be depended on an another clause? What conjunctive should we use?

Those are question of linguistic, not of "tattoo-istic" interest. :wink:

Infinitives are nouns and need not depend on a verb. The infinitive of any verb can, as an indeclinable neuter noun, denote 'the action of ...-ing'.

Supines are a certain sort of frozen noun-form of the verb that can only be used in conjunction with verbs of motion.

That's why I objected. 'To love and cherish' can't be meant to denote something along the lines of "I got this tattoo in order to love and cherish", that isn't feasible. The only possibility is denoting "the action of loving and cherishing", correctly expressed by the infinitives.


I did not say that the use of the infinitive is a mistake; I just added another option. Infinitives are also noun-forms. The use of them independently (without conjunction to a verb) happens only in certain cases (exclamatory clause, narration in past). Latin dictionaries do not have infinitivesas entries, but the first singular indicative active (exceptions for "deponentia verba", or defective verbs etc.)
An infinitive by itself may express nothing, in my oppinion, but a shadowy action/situation. Why do you suppose that any infinitive in Latin means "to do something"? Don't consider it as the English infinitive. A Latin infinitive may also mean "that I do something" . In this case it can not be used as our friend needs to.

My point is that no form by itself in any language can denote an exact meaning, if a context is not present. Am I wrong? However, If your point has only to do with the fact that in our case not a goal should be denoted but just an action, perhaps you are right. But I am so sure if the Latin infinitive have the strength of the ENglish one as in the following sentence: To love and cherish is wonderfull.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby timeodanaos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:02 pm

Swth\r wrote:My point is that no form by itself in any language can denote an exact meaning, if a context is not present. Am I wrong? However, If your point has only to do with the fact that in our case not a goal should be denoted but just an action, perhaps you are right. But I am so sure if the Latin infinitive have the strength of the ENglish one as in the following sentence: To love and cherish is wonderfull.

My point has only to do with the fact that infinitives can stand on their own with force of a singular, indeclinable neuter noun, while supines cannot, as they must depend on a finite verb, and on top of that one of motion.

'amare bonum est' it is a good thing to love. As far as my command of the English language goes, I see no noteworthy difference between the meanings of the infinitives. There is the morphological difference that infinitive in English has the small word 'to' attached to it - however, in all uses of the infinitive, this is not present. The same phenomenon is seen in German, only with the word 'zu' added to the infinitive, zu lieben, for example.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby adrianus » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:30 am

I think you're anticipating a theoretical reason, Swth\r, why the supine isn't used in the same way as the infinitive might be in any such motto. It comes down to usage. If you were to find it used anywhere in such a way, great. I doubt it, though.

Credo, Swth\r, te rationem dialecticam praesumere, quae explicat cur non modo simile infinitivi in tale dicto supinum adhibeatur. Consuetudinis res est. Si supinum sic adhiberi ullo in loco invenias, bonum sit. Dubito autem fore ut vincas.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:39 pm

If you mean that the infinitive can be used in much more cases that the supine, you have wight. Supine has a very special function in Latin.
But what I say is that "amare" can not be found independently. It needs a verb to be hung upon. When you say in latin "punire bonum est", it has no difference from "rediit punitum" (syntactically, not in meaning). In the first case the infinitive is depended on the impersonal verb "bonum est"; in the second the supine is depended on the verb of motion "rediit". They are in both cases DEPENDED verbal-noun forms, not UNDEPENDED... This is what I say. As we can not use "punitum" by itself in any clause, we can not also use "punire" by itself in any clause... Isn't it true?
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Re: Latin translation

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:39 pm

Swth\r wrote:But what I say is that "amare" can not be found independently. ...As we can not use "punitum" by itself in any clause, we can not also use "punire" by itself in any clause... Isn't it true?

The infinitive is rather special (in a motto or out of a motto),—it enjoys the qualities of a subject in any potential sentence (as Timeodanaos says). Here's the motto of New York State University: "To Persist and Perform". Everyone there might say: I'm a university member. My duty is to persist and perform.

Specialius autem infinitivum (aut intrà aut extrà emblema), quod subjecti adjunctos in quâcunque sententiâ habebit (ut dicit timeodanaos). Ecce Novi Eboraci emblema universitatis: Perstare et Praestare. Omnis illîc dicat: "Socius universitatis sum. Perstare et praestare meum est."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:32 pm

adrianus wrote:
Swth\r wrote:But what I say is that "amare" can not be found independently. ...As we can not use "punitum" by itself in any clause, we can not also use "punire" by itself in any clause... Isn't it true?

The infinitive is rather special (in a motto or out of a motto),—it enjoys the qualities of a subject in any potential sentence (as Timeodanaos says). Here's the motto of New York State University: "To Persist and Perform". Everyone there might say: I'm a university member. My duty is to persist and perform.

So? You say that the infinitive can be used as a subject, but supine not? What does it have to do with the matter? A subject is a subject because of a verb... It is nothing but an "idea", "an entity of the world", if without a verbal form...
I can also tattoo on me an ADVERB! Like "CELERIVS", if I am a sprinter. Does it "enjoy the qualities of a subject in any potential sentence"? Can it be used by itself, without dependence to another word in actual speech? Of course not, but it can be used on someone as a tattoo... I think that you are missunderstanding my ponit. I say that somenone can say (of show) on a tattoo whatever he wants.
I say it again... Latin infinitives are not like the English one... For a Roman citizen, "amare" would be nothing more than "amatum". And if you think of that, he may had got much more from the supine (used isolated), as a meaning, than from the infinitive. Because supine has a very special syntactic function in a latin sentence. But infinitive can be a lot of things. E.g., what about "amavisse"? This is also an infinitive; do you think it can be used in such a way as the English infinitive?
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Re: Latin translation

Postby lacramioara » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:29 pm

hi! I need some help. could you tell me what is the latin translation of "grand treasurer"? I was thinking of "magnus thesaurer" but I am so not sure.
Thanks!
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Re: Latin translation

Postby adrianus » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:55 pm

Swth\r wrote:E.g., what about "amavisse"? This is also an infinitive; do you think it can be used in such a way as the English infinitive?

Yes, I do. "To have loved" would be a nice, understandable motto (= "To have lived and to have loved! (Better than never to have lived and loved!)").
Iterum, sic puto. Et bellum et intellectibile "amavisse" ut emblema aestimo ( = "Vixisse et amavisse! (Melius est quàm nunquàm vixisse et amavisse!)").
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby adrianus » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:31 pm

lacramiora wrote:hi! I need some help. could you tell me what is the latin translation of "grand treasurer"? I was thinking of "magnus thesaurer" but I am so not sure.
Thanks!


Vide viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9073
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby Swth\r » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:48 pm

adrianus wrote:
Swth\r wrote:E.g., what about "amavisse"? This is also an infinitive; do you think it can be used in such a way as the English infinitive?

Yes, I do. "To have loved" would be a nice, understandable motto (= "To have lived and to have loved! (Better than never to have lived and loved!)").
Iterum, sic puto. Et bellum et intellectibile "amavisse" ut emblema aestimo ( = "Vixisse et amavisse! (Melius est quàm nunquàm vixisse et amavisse!)").


Adrianus, you are making a big mistake, like many people when starting to learn a foreign language (unfortunatelly, I know that very well, not only as a language teacher, but also as a lanuage learner): you think in English and you are trying to speak/write in Latin! Inevitably, you make mistakes. The sentence that you mention is NEVER grammatical in latin... "Amavisse" always in latin means "that I have lived/that I lived", not "to have lived" NEVER... It has nothing to do with the way you translate it in English.
Your sentence is not bad Latin; it is no Latin at all.
In Latin, Adrianus, you can not say "We ought to have loved" as "Debuimus *amavisse". This is not Latin, at all... It is always "debuimus amare". You can not say "licebit *amavisse"; only "licebit amare". You can not say "necesse est/erat/fuit... *amavisse"; only "necesse est/erat/fuit... amare". The same with "it is better to have done... than to have done..."; it is never "melius est *dedisse... quam *dedisse..." but "melius est dare... quam dare..." (at least in prose for sure)
You cannot also say in Latin "necesse est *amaturum esse" (the same in english)
What you can say is "visum est mihi te amavisse catellum meum ". "It seemed to me that you had loved my puppy"; or "visum est nobis vos amaturos esse equos vestros". "It seemed to us that you will love your horses". Or, of course "visus es amavisse catellum meum"; "you seemed to me to have loved my puppy" (which, literally speaking, means , "you seemed that you had loved my puppy"). The same "visi estis amaturi esse equos vestros"; "you seemed to be about to love your horses" (which, literally speaking, means again "you seem that you will love your horses"). The word order is in purpose not the usual one in Latin.
In English you can say "I would prefer to have given him a present". In Latin you can not say "Malui *dedisse...". Only "Malui dare..."
I am getting tired saying the same thing again and again: LATIN INFINITIVES ARE NOT LIKE ENGLISH ONES. So are Latin participles, Latin gerunds, Latin...

Read the following passage from Bennett's Latin grammar. Colour and underlining is done by me... (You can find a lot of things in other grammars, as well)

TENSES OF THE INFINITIVE.

270. 1. The tenses of the Infinitive denote time not absolutely, but with reference to the verb on which they depend. Thus:—

a) The Present Infinitive represents an act as contemporaneous with the time of the verb on which it depends; as,—

vidētur honōrēs adsequī, he seems to be gaining honors;

vidēbātur honōrēs adsequī, he seemed to be gaining honors.

b) The Perfect Infinitive represents an act as prior to the time of the verb on which it depends; as,—

vidētur honōrēs adsecūtus esse, he seems to have gained honors;

vīsus est honōrēs adsecūtus esse, he seemed to have gained honors.

c) The Future Infinitive represents an act as subsequent to that of the verb on which it depends; as,—

vidētur honōrēs adsecūtūrus esse, he seems to be about to gain honors;

vīsus est honōrēs adsecūtūrus esse, he seemed to be about to gain honors.

2. Where the English says 'ought to have done,' 'might have done,' etc., the Latin uses dēbuī, oportuit, potuī (dēbēbam, oportēbat, poteram), with the Present Infinitive; as,—

dēbuit dīcere, he ought to have said (lit. owed it to say);

opōrtuit venīre, he ought to have come;

potuit vidēre, he might have seen.

a. Oportuit, volō, nōlō (and in poetry some other verbs), may take a Perfect Infinitive instead of the Present; as,—

hōc jam prīdem factum esse oportuit, this ought long ago to have been done.
EXCEPTION
3. PERIPHRASTIC FUTURE INFINITIVE. Verbs that have no Participial Stem, express the Future Infinitive Active and Passive by fore ut or futūrum esse ut, with the Subjunctive; as,—

spērō fore ut tē paeniteat levitātis, I hope you will repent of your fickleness (lit. hope it will happen that you repent);

spērō futūrum esse ut hostēs arceantur, I hope that the enemy will be kept off.

a. The Periphrastic Future Infinitive is often used, especially in the Passive, even in case of verbs which have the Participial Stem; as,—

spērō fore ut hostēs vincantur, I hope the enemy will be conquered.

4. Passives and Deponents sometimes form a Future Perfect Infinitive with fore; as,—

spērō epistulam scrīptam fore, I hope the letter will have been written;

dīcō mē satis adeptum fore, I say that I shall have gained enough.


I am not an expert neither in Latin nor in English. Greek is my field. I am not trying (personally or not) to dispute with anyone or scold anyone. I just defend my stand on the matter.
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Re: Latin translation

Postby adrianus » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:21 am

Swth\r wrote:"Amavisse" always in latin means "that I have lived/that I lived", not "to have lived" NEVER... It has nothing to do with the way you translate it in English.
Your sentence is not bad Latin; it is no Latin at all...it is never "melius est *dedisse... quam *dedisse..." but "melius est dare... quam dare..." (at least in prose for sure)

Allen & Greenough, §486.f wrote:quiesse erit melius (Liv. iii. 48), it will be better to have kept quiet


"that I have lived/that I lived" is a particular instance of the general sense "to have lived" in English.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Latin translation - for Valentine's day

Postby JeanneA » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:17 pm

I am working on a project for Valentine's day that involves a latin translation of an original phrase.

Could someone please tell me how you would translate the phrase:
"would be in the palm of my hand" like you were holding something.

Also, as an aside, can someone tell me the correct translation of
"Happy Valentine's Day."

Thank you for your help.
Jeanne
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