Textkit Logo

Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:21 pm

In different periods and places, the pictures on playing cards have changed, so certain translations in Latin sometimes will be meaningless to Latin speakers of another place or time. The English names come from French cards, elements of which were borrowed from Italian cards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card The English names of symbols on common cards today are in, in order: Ace (low), deuce/two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten and four face cards, or Court cards: Jack or Knave, Queen, King, plus the Joker. Suits: of Hearts, of Diamonds, of Spades, of Clubs. [I need to check this but I think that possibly you used to say in English for the run of that number of cards, terce/tierce, tetrad, pentad, hexad, heptad, ogdoad, ennead, decad (and decade, which is still frequently pronounced 'decad'). Ace from Latin monas and deuce from Latin dyas are still used, of course, and I don't think the usage of terce is outside living memory in some places.]

Pexenfelder (Germany, 1670) says Chartulae pictae seu lusoriae: monas, dyas, trias/ternio, tetras/quaternio, pemptas/quinio, hectas/senio, hebdomas/septenarius, ogdoas/octonarius, enneas/nonarius, decas/decenarius. Tribus/factiones: Cordis, Nolae, Glandis, Frondis (of Heart, Bell, Acorn, Leaf). Note genitive singular case here. His face cards in each suit are only Kings, it seems: Reges (Cordatus, Nolanus, Quernus, Gramineus seu Frondarius) Videte http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camena ... s0794.html

Ainsworth (England, 1808) says Chartae lusoriae/pictae: monas, dyas, ternio, quaternio, pentas, senio, heptas, ogdoas, enneas. decas. Chartae imaginem humanam gerens: Miles/eques, Regina, Rex. Familia seu ) Cors, Rhombus, Trifolium (for Club), Macula Nigra (Spade).

If it's no trouble, please, would you tell me the common names of these playing cards in your language of today, plus the literal English translations of their names?
Si tibi non molestum est, quaeso, dicasne mihi appellationes vulgares harum charularum pictarum tuâ linguâ nostro tempore, appellationibus etiam verbatim in Anglicum conversis?

For example, in French Exempli gratiâ, Francicé:
Cartes à Jouer (playing cards): l'as 1 (Ace), le deux 2, le trois 3, le quatre 4, le cinq 5, le six 6, le sept 7, le huit 8, le neuf 9, le dix 10. Cartes de face?? (Face cards): le valet (the servant), la Dame (the Lady), le Roi (the King), le Joker (the Joker). Suits: de pique (of Spade): de coeur (of Heart), de trèfle (of Clover), de carreau (of Square)


As a shortcut, just cut and paste the above text to edit. Pro compendiariâ, haec verba duplica et inice ut eos redigas.
Last edited by adrianus on Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby timeodanaos » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:21 pm

In Danish:

The four colours are called
hjerter, hearts, means the same.
ruder, diamonds, the Danish word actually means windowglass, probably because of the shape.
spar, spades, the Danish word has an older spelling Spader and has the same etymology as the English word, probably from Spanish 'espadas'.
klør, clubs, this word is actually the word kløver abbreviated in colloquial language, kløver means clover.

es, ace, this word can also mean the side of one on dice and comes from Latin as.
2-10, these are called by their respective number, e.g. spar tre, spades three

knægt is the same word as knave, i.e. either a soldier or simply a young man.
This card can also be called bonde, peasant.
dronning, queen. This card can also be called dame, lady.
konge, king.
timeodanaos
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:36 pm
Location: Hafnia, Denmark

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:30 pm

Great, timeodanaos. Much appreciated.
Mirum est, timeodanaos. Maximam gratiam tibi habeo.
English 'spade/spado (card mark)' (OED, 1598) directly from Italian, spada spade (pl.), "broad sword", or as you say Spanish, from latin spatha, ae (generis feminini)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby timeodanaos » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:38 pm

adrianus wrote:English 'spade' (OED, 1598) directly from Italian, spado spade (pl.), "broad sword", from latin spatha, ae (generis feminini)
The older Danish dictionary I used (the only really really broad one in 28+5 parts) cites only Spanish 'espadas', meaning a (broad) daggert, but anyway, anyone could see it's the same word.

Considering the history of playing cards in Europe, it would certainly seem more probable with a derivate from Italian.
timeodanaos
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:36 pm
Location: Hafnia, Denmark

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Alatius » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:48 pm

For what it's worth, the Swedish terms are basically the same as in Danish. The four suits are hjärter ("hearts"), ruter ("squares"), spader, and klöver ("clover"). The first card is an ess, but the following cards just have cardinal numbers (e.g. hjärter två, hjärter tre, hjärter fyra...). The face cards are often called klädda kort, "dressed cards", and consist of knekt, "soldier" (otherwise arcaic word), dam, "lady" (never drottning, "queen", as in Danish), and kung, "king".

By the way, what are the traditional Latin names for chess pieces?
Alatius
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Upsalia, Suecia

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:05 pm

Gratias tibi de responso, Alati.

Alatius wrote:By the way, what are the traditional Latin names for chess pieces?

Utrimque est rex, regina, bini duces, bini episcopi, bini milites atque octo pedites, ut credo.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Swth\r » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:13 pm

In modern Greek they come either from Italian or French.

King = ρήγας [‘riγas] from “rex-regis”, probably a linguistic relic from Venetian occupation or Roman-Buzantine era.
Queen = ντάμα [ ‘dama] from French “dame” = lady, from Latin "domina-ae"
Knave = βαλές [va ‘les] from French “valet”. It is also called φάντης [‘fandis], from Italian “fante” which comes from Latin “infans-ntis”
Ace = άσ(σ)ος [ ‘asos] from Italian “asso” from Latin "as-assis"
The numbers are called as greek numbers.
I haven't found (yet) about Joker...

Groups:
Hearts = κούπα [ ‘kupα], plural κούπες [‘kupes], from Italian “coppe” (=cups) from Latin "cup(p)a-ae"
Diamonds, squares = καρώ [ka’ro] from French “carreaux” from Latin "quadrellus-i"
Spades, clovers = σπαθί [spa’θi] from venetian “spade” (= sword), from Latin “spata-ae”
Clubs = μπαστούνι [ba’stuni] from Italian “bastoni” (= pike, club, stick) from Latin "bastus-i"

In greek (and in english) cards the figures “Spades” and “Clubs” are named in the opposite way than in first time in Italian (where bastoni=clover , spade=shovel), apparently because the etymology of those words was/is very "dark" for modern Greeks.

So, Latin origin in greek cards:

Rex, for "king"
Domina, for "queen"
infans, for "knave"
Spata, for "clover" (instead for "club")
Bastus, for "club" (instead for "clover")
quadrellus, for "diamond"
cup(p)a, for "heart"

I just learned some very intersting things, many more than those posted above! Welldone, Adrianus. :D
Last edited by Swth\r on Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Swth\r » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Did you know?
A summe of what I learned...

Card playnig has its origin in China.
It came to Europe through Turkish and mostly Mameluks to Italy and Spain (at first) in the 14th century.
The first human figures were King, Knight, Servant.
After the Queen was inserted, Knight and Servant became the known as "Knave".
Groups were symbols: Clovers for farmers, diamonds for merchants, Clubs for noblemen, Hearts for clergy. (In Italy the names were: "bastoni, denari,spade,coppe"=stick,money,sword,cup)
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby bedwere » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:46 pm

Italian names for French cards:

King=Re
Queen=Regina
Knave=Fante
Joker=La matta (but more often called Jolly)
Ace=Asso

Hearts=Cuori (Hearts)
Diamonds=Quadri (Squares)
Spades=Picche (from the French pique)
Clubs=Fiori (Flowers)
User avatar
bedwere
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:31 pm

Great, Salvator & bedwere. Curiouser and curiouser!!
Eu! Mirum plus ultrá fit, Salvator bedwereque!!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:53 am

Here's the passage from Vives that I had lost
Ecce locus quem desideraveram:
Vives (Spain and Netherlands, 1492-1540), Colloquia difficiliora, wrote:Hispanae habent aureos numos, carchesia, baculos, enses;
Gallicae corda, rhombulos, trifolia, vomerculos seu palas seu spicula.
Est in quaqua famila rex, regina, eques, monas, dyas, trias, quaternio, pentas, senio, heptas, ogdoas, enneas.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby cdm2003 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:44 am

adrianus wrote:Gratias tibi de responso, Alati.

Alatius wrote:By the way, what are the traditional Latin names for chess pieces?

Utrimque est rex, regina, bini duces, bini episcopi, bini milites atque octo pedites, ut credo.


Uh...which are the rooks, the duces or milites? I always thought knights should have been equites and rooks turres...but I that was only a guess.
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
User avatar
cdm2003
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:06 am

Salve cdm2003
A duke is greater than a knight. The rook is the "duke". Miles = a knight in the medieval period. Pedes (pawn)= a foot-soldier.
Dux (appelatio aevi medii quae anglicè "duke" significat) maior est quàm miles (anglicè "knight" aevo medio).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Junya » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:52 pm

Hi, Adrianus. :D

In Japan, the name of the cards are just a literal translation or transcription of the English way of naming them as you told.

Ace.......E-su (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
Two.....Ni (which means two)
Three......San (which means three)
and in the same way until 10.

Jack......Jakku (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
Queen......Kui-n (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
King .......Kingu (just a transcription of English to Japanese)

Heart.......Ha-to (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
Diamond......Daiya (just a transcription of English to Japanese, with a shortening from Daiyamondo to Daiya)
Spade.....Supe-do (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
Club....... Kurabu (just a transcription of English to Japanese) or Curo-ba- (which is a transcription of Clover) or Mitsuba (which is a Japanese name of clover)

Joker......Jo-ka- (just a transcription of English to Japanese)
Junya
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Japan

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 pm

Gratias tibi ago, Junya.

Cardano (De Ludo Aleae, pub. 1663 but written in the 1560s) says for the names of the face, or Court, cards: King, Foot soldier, and either the Queen (in France) or the Knight (in Italy).
Dicit Cardanus Italus (decade millesimo quingentensimo sexagensimo incipiente), nomina chartarum figurarum Regem, Pedem (anglicè "Knave"), et Reginam (secundùm Gallos) seu Equitem (secundùm Italos) esse.

A Netherlands treatise (1534), gives Denarii, Trifolia, Ligones, Corda
Also...
Singer (1816) Researches into the History of Playing Cards, p.57, (but as a table) wrote:English
Diamonds, Clubs, Hearts, Spades
King, Queen, Knave
German
Rauten [Rhombi] or Schellen [little bells], Kreuzen [Crosses] or Eicheln [Acorns], Herzen [Hearts] or Rothe [Red?], Spaten [Spades] or Grüne [Green? blossoming?] or Laub [Leaves]
Konig [King], Obermann [officer?], Untermann [private?]
Dutch
Ruyten [Rhombi/diamond-shaped panes of glass], Claver [Clover/Trefoil], Hertzen [Hearts], Schoppen [Shovels/Spades]
Italian
Quadri [rhombi or squares?] or Denari [Money], Fiori [flowers] or Mattoni [?] or Bastoni [clubs], Cuori [Hearts] or Coppe [goblets], Picche [Spades] or Spade [broad swords]
Ré [King], Réina [Queen] or Cavallo [horse], Fante [footman? pageboy?]
Spanish
Ladrillos [bricks?] or Dineros [Money], Bastos [Clubs?] or Palos [spades?], Coraçones [?] or Copas [goblets?], Picas [pikes?] or Spadas [Swords]
Rey [King], Reyna [Queen] or Caballo [Horse]
Portuguese
Oiros [Money/Gold?] or Ouros [Money/Gold?], Paós {?], Copas [goblet?], Espadas [Swords]
Rey [King], Reyna [Queen] or Cavallo [Horse]
French
Carreau [Square], Trefle [Clover or Trefoil], Coeurs [Hearts], Piques [Pikes]
Roi [King], Reine [Queen], Valet [Manservant]

Daus [German, deuce]
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby ingrid70 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:02 am

I think your Dutch translations come from an old book, spelling has changed since then ;-).:

Modern Dutch:
Ruiten, klaver, harten, schoppen
Koning/heer, vrouw, boer
Aas, 2, 3, etc.

Ingrid
ingrid70
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Swth\r » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:49 am

Junya wrote: or Mitsuba (which is a Japanese name of clover)


Hello Junya! May I ask what "Mitsubishi" exactly means? It seems it has some short of relation to "Mitsuba". :roll:

Thanks!

[Sorry for the off-topic, Adrianus!]
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Junya » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:26 am

Hi Swth/r.

Do you mean that big company in Japan?
Yes, Mitsuba, that is, clover, resembles that trade mark of Mitsubishi.
But, Mitsuba and Mitsubishi are not the same.
Their common part "mitsu" means "three".
And "ba" in "Mitsuba" means leaf. So Mitsuba is that three-leaved plant, clover.
"Bishi" in "Mitsubishi" means a kind of shape. I can't explain the shape in English, for the lack of vocabulary, so please look into that trade mark of "Mitsubishi". That mark consists of three "hishi". ("Hishi" is the original form, and "bishi" is a phonologically changed form.)

Here is Mitsubishi's homepage. The page is in Japanese.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.jp/
Junya
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Japan

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Alatius » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:40 pm

From the look of the logo, a hishi is then a rhombus (or rhomb), or, indeed, a diamond, as on the playing cards.

[Bringing it back on topic.] :lol:
Alatius
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Upsalia, Suecia

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:27 pm

How you do translate the heart and spade symbols in 'real' japanese (in the Latin alphabet), Junya?
Quomodò, Junya, orthographiâ latinâ in sermones japonicas et authenticas signa cordis et palae vertis?

ingrid70 wrote:I think your Dutch translations come from an old book, spelling has changed since then ;-).

Yes, of 1816! BTW, are there Dutch equivalents of "deuce" or "tray", ingrid70? Also vrouw =? boer =? exactly "queen"? and "knave" in an older sense of lesser-noble, or servant or, in a more modern sense, a rascal? or what words exactly in English, would you say?
Ità, anni millesimi octingentesimi sexti decimi! Obiter, exstantne verba nederlandicè velut anglicè "deuce" et "tray"?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby quendidil » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:36 pm

Adriane, I do not think there are any native Japanese adaptations of the French suit of cards commonly used in this age - only the borrowed English terms are in common use.

However, there were native adaptations into Japanese based on 16th century Portuguese cards. The name of the suits are all direct translations of the Portuguese terms, which I think are essentially identical to the Spanish ones: konbou 棍棒 (club), touken 刀剣 (sword), sakazuki 杯 (cup), kahei 貨幣 (coin). ['ou' and 'ei' are pronounced like long o and e in Latin respectively, never as in French or English]

The Portguese cards evolved along their own track in Japan, in a rather quirky process. There is some info on wikipedia.
quendidil
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:39 am

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Swth\r » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:18 pm

Hishi-fishi = brill - diamond - lozenge - rhomb - rhombus - teetotum

I suppose rhomb-rhombus is the best answer.

Thanks Junya!

[End of off-topic discussion :D ]
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby adrianus » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:49 am

Thanks, Quendidil. You furnished more that I had hoped for. I was hoping to know the Japanese for the symbols on the French cards, that aren't actually used for the card names.

To my mind, what you asked was relevant, Savator, because now I have two out of four names for the symbols (mitsuba and hishi).

Gratias tibi ago, Quendil. Plura quàm rogavi paravit. Speraveram scire appellationes signorum, ques non similes illis chartarum sunt.

Meâ mente, quod rogavisti aptum est, Salvator, quià nunc duas è quattuor signorum appellationes japonicè scio.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Junya » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:04 am

Yes, Alatius, and Swth\r, "Hishi" of "Mitsubishi" is rhombus, and the shape of diamond.
Originally, there is an aquatic plant called "Hishi", and its shape is rhombus.
But Japanese don't call the playing cards' Diamond "Hishi".
We just call it "Daia", which means "Diamond" (a shortened form of "Daiamondo").
Last edited by Junya on Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Junya
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Japan

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Junya » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:16 am

Adrianus, Heart is in Japanese "Shinzo", and "Spade" is in Japanese "Suki" or just generally "Shaberu"(a transcription of "shovel").

But Japanese don't call the playing cards' Heart "Shinzo", and Spade "Suki". Japanese just use for them the transcriptions "Ha^to" and "Supe^do".
Last edited by Junya on Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Junya
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Japan

Re: Playing cards in Latin and in your language

Postby Junya » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:20 am

quendidil さん、こんにちは。
ぼくは印度哲学科の学生ですが、ラテン語とギリシャ語を独学しています。

ぼくのブログです。
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/dakuserukun
ラテン語の勉強で訳したのを投稿するだけの内容です。
Junya
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:26 am
Location: Japan


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jandar, Petrus and 24 guests