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Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

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Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby julia08 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:29 pm

So... the latin on the board at Lonesome Dove reads:
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit

I know the correct phrase is from Juvenal, and is Uva uvam videndo varia fit: "a grape, seeing another grape, changes color"

and I'm pretty sure that "uva uvam vivendo varia fit" is just nonsense. But suppose you wanted to change the phrase so that it read:
"a grape, living with another grape, changes color"? -- That, after all, is what happend with Gus and Cal, and is probably what McMurty had in mind.

Would it be this: "uva uva vivendo varia fit"?

Thanks for the help!!
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Re: Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:49 pm

Salve julia08
julia08 wrote:uva uva vivendo varia fit
Very rarely is the ablative of accompaniment used without "cum" (Allen & Greenough, §413). It would, I suspect, be more correct to say "Uva cum uvâ vivendo varia fit".
Rarissimè sine "cum" ablativus comitandi significatione scribitur. Commodiùs dicetur ('ut credo, dicetur' futuri temporis activo modo latiné, praesentis subjunctivo anglicé), suspicor: "Uva cum uvâ vivendo varia fit".
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:26 pm

julia08 wrote:uva uva vivendo varia fit
Note also this phrase means more "A grape living by means of a grape [i.e., 'upon a grape' or 'eating a grape'] ripens."
Setiùs, ambiguum dictum tuum est, nota.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby adrianus » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:49 pm

Note that you can say classically "Uva in diem vivendo varia fit" and "Uva in horam vivendo varia fit" for "a grape by living hand-to-mouth [depending just on God] ripens" or "a grape by living in the moment ripens". But those are idiomatic phrases (well, I suppose that's stretching a point to say 'idiomatic' unless amongst grapes, :D but 'in diem vivere' and 'in horam vivere' are idiomatic!), and if you said "uva in uvam vivendo" hoping for the sense of "a grape in living solely for another grape ripens" or "in the pocket (!) of another grape", as it were, you really should say "uva ovae [dativo] vivendo varia fit".

Ego quoquè, sensu quem requiris et casu accusativo, "ovam" accomodare non possum, nec idiomatibus quidem.


POST SCRIPTUM
Hunc jocum nota, etiam. Note the joke in Lonesome Dove: "We rent rigs...We don't rent pigs. Ova ovam [sic] vivendo varia fit." Id est, "We don't rent pigs because, when you live with a pig you become a pig." [Horses and cattle are OK, of course, and we're talking rigs!]
Last edited by adrianus on Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby julia08 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:12 pm

Thanks!
So...
does "uva uvam vivendo varia fit" translate to anything?
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Re: Fixing Lonesome Dove's Latin

Postby julia08 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:14 pm

...oh, wait... you answered that!
never mind.
Thanks again!
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