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Iliad 1:63

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Iliad 1:63

Postby Bert » Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:36 am

The second half of Iliad 1:63 reads [face=SPIonic]kai\ ga/r t' o)/nar e(k Dio/j e)stin,[/face]<br />- for also a dream is from Zeus,-<br />I don't understand why there is a KAI and a TE in this line.<br />It is hard to translate both words. Something like this may be possible - for even a dream is from Zeus too,-<br />Is this more or less the force of these two words in this line?<br />Thank you.<br />Bert.
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:15 pm

Maybe he needed a long alpha in gar? What the whole line?<br />Are you sure it's TE? Looks more like to onar to me... onar is neuter after all... then it would just be: for even the dream is from Zeus.
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Bert » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:30 pm

The whole line is;<br />[face=SPIonic] h(\ kai\ o)neiropo/lon, kai\ ga/r t' o)/nar e(k Dio/j e)stin,[/face] <br />Maybe it is the article. I didn't realize that ellision can occur also with the article. Maybe that is what is happening here.<br /> Thank you.<br />Bert<br />
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:45 pm

I just analysed the line, I think he needed that t to make gar a long syllable.
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby annis » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:58 pm

I really don't think [face=SPIonic]to/[/face] can elide that way. So I'm 99.99% sure it is [face=SPIonic]te[/face]. (EDIT: I am 100% sure the editor of the text thinks it is [face=SPIonic]te[/face]. Notice the accent on [face=SPIonic]ga/r[/face].)<br /><br />The thing about [face=SPIonic]te[/face] is that it is not just a postpositive word for "and". It is also used a lot in general, universal statements, so that in later Attic certain idioms required the use of it always. In Epic it often goes with relative pronouns and certain conjunctions.<br /><br />Here the idea is proverbial. Thus [face=SPIonic]te[/face]. In this sentence I think [face=SPIonic]ga/r[/face] is the conjuction and [face=SPIonic]kai/[/face] is adverbial, modifying [face=SPIonic]o)/nar[/face]. So:<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]kai\ ga/r t' o)/nar e)k Dio/j e)stin[/face]. "For even dreams are from Zeus."<br /><br />I translate "dreams" rather than "dream" just to make the English idiomatic
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Paul » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:12 pm

Hi,<br /><br />I don't think [face=SPIonic]t'[/face] here is the demonstrative pronoun. It is the particle [face=SPIonic]te[/face].<br /><br />Denniston says that [face=SPIonic]te[/face] following other particles ([face=SPIonic]ga/r te[/face]) 'generalizes' or makes 'habitual' the action. I don't think this aspect of the particle is always readily translatable.<br />But here it yields something like:<br /><br />"For even dreams are (always, known to be, customarily) from Zeus". This 'generalizing' aspect imparts a kind of proverbial quality to the thing.<br /><br />At least one other source suggests that the [face=SPIonic]te[/face] in this line should not be translated.<br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Paul<br /><br />
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Shine » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:28 pm

Hi i`m new here ;) Sorry for my English, it`s far from perfect<br />1. "[face=SPIonic]te[/face]"-is really "[face=SPIonic]te[/face]" with no doubts <br />2. [face=SPIonic]kai gar[/face] You should translate as "for/because" not as "for also" than you get: For ([face=SPIonic]kai gar[/face]) a dream is also([face=SPIonic]te[/face]) from Zeus <br />Just yesterday my professor of Greek language explained me similar case with [face=SPIonic]kai gar[/face] from Xenophon<br /><br />That is my fingerpoint ;)
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Re:Iliad 1:63

Postby Emma_85 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:27 pm

I didn't know that about the article. Learned something again :).
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