Textkit Logo

Demosthenes De Corona 14

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Demosthenes De Corona 14

Postby vir litterarum » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:35 am

καὶ μὴν εἴ τι τῶν ἄλλων ὧν νυνὶ διέβαλλε καὶ διεξῄει ἢ καὶ ἄλλ' ὁτιοῦν ἀδικοῦντά μ' ὑμᾶς ἑώρα, εἰσὶ νόμοι περὶ πάντων καὶ τιμωρίαι, καὶ ἀγῶνες καὶ κρίσεις πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλ' ἔχουσαι τἀπιτίμια

Can anyone tell me why πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλ' is in the predicate position? It seems that it is just an attribute of τἀπιτίμια here, "sharp and great penalties."
vir litterarum
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:04 am
Location: Oberlin, Ohio

Re: Demosthenes De Corona 14

Postby Swth\r » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:11 pm

τἁπιτίμια (=τὰ ἑπιτίμια) πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα ἔχουσαι=

The adjectives are in predicat(iv)e position the one or the other way. Even if without the participle "ἔχουσαι", which stands as copula here, the substantive has the article, but the adjectives not. Here the verb "ἔχω" stands as copula. It takes two accusatives, the first is merely the object, the other is its predicate.

Note this:

attributive use =

1) τὰ πικρὰ καὶ (τὰ) μεγάλα τἁπιτίμια
2) τὰ πικρὰ καὶ (τὰ) μεγάλα ἑπιτιίμια
3) πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα ἑπιτίμια
4) τἁπιτίμια τὰ πικρὰ καὶ (τὰ) μεγάλα
5) ἑπιτίμια τὰ πικρὰ καὶ (τὰ) μεγάλα
6) ἑπιτίμια πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα

predicative use =

1) πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα τὰ ἑπιτίμια
2) τὰ ἑπιτίμια πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Demosthenes De Corona 14

Postby vir litterarum » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:19 pm

I know that they are in the predicative position, but it doesn't seem that they should be: πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλ' seem to me to just be attributes of ἔχουσαι that do not make any further predication, i.e. "...having sharp and great penalties."
vir litterarum
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:04 am
Location: Oberlin, Ohio

Re: Demosthenes De Corona 14

Postby Swth\r » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:35 pm

It is like saying:

... the penalties, which trials have, are sharp and great. :wink:

Remember that attributive adjectives give to the substantive a permanent (or understood as permanent) attribute; but predicat(iv)e ones give to substantives a temporary (or understood as such) attribute. In english (I am not 100% sure though :oops: ) you can say:

I fight having my sharp sword, (attributive)
or,
I fight having the sword sharp. (predicative) (Is it correct in english?)

In our case, the penalties are understood by Demosthrnes as temporary, and not permanent.

ἔχω ἑπιτίμια πικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα (I have sharp and great penalties = attributive)
ἔχω πικρὰ καὶ μεγὰλα τὰ ἑπιτίμια (the penalties that I have are sharp and great = predicative)

I hope I have helped you... Utherwise you need help from someone more knowlegeable than me in English. :?
Dives qui sapiens est...
Swth\r
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Greece


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CanadianGirl, Yahoo [Bot] and 21 guests