future perfect or perfect subjunctive

[mariek]

With the exception of 1st person singular, how do you know whether a verb is future perfect or perfect subjunctive?<br /><br />Noxam ab incolis pepulerimus<br /><br />I'm not sure whether "pepulerimus" is 1st person plural future perfect or 1st person plural perfect subjunctive.<br /><br />Should this sentence translate to<br /><br /> We shall have driven off harm from the inhabitants. (fut perf)<br /><br />or<br /><br /> We drove off harm from the inhabitants. (perf subj ??? )<br /><br />I can't quite grasp what the Latin to English translation is for perfect subjunctive. <br />

[benissimus]

It is difficult to differentiate between the two. The only difference in form is that the perfect subjunctive has a long "I" and the future perfect usually does not (but can). The sentence you have is probably a future perfect, because it is just highly unlikely that they would say such a thing without some sort of subjunctive clause. It just doesn't make as much sense to have a past jussive (hortatory/volitive).<br /><br />*and no, you cannot translate a perfect subjunctive into English unless it has a valid context.

[benissimus]

By the way, I'm amazed at how far you are since you last posted about your work!

[mariek]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6514 date=1064295915]<br />The only difference in form is that the perfect subjunctive has a long "I" and the future perfect usually does not (but can). [/quote]<br /><br />Really? That difference would really help beginners like me.<br /><br />Hmmm... there's something wrong with my book then because it doesn't show the long "I" for either the perfect subjunctive or the future perfect. :-\ Are they trying to throw me a curve ball?<br /><br />

[mariek]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6518 date=1064296519]<br />By the way, I'm amazed at how far you are since you last posted about your work!<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If only that were really so. I seem to be skipping around a bit now that I'm using a different book which presents concepts in a different order.<br /><br />

[benissimus]

Unfortunately for us, long and short vowels can vary according to preference, but I was taught that the future perfect goes like this:<br /><br />-ero   -erimus<br />-eris   -eritis<br />-erit   -erunt<br /><br />and the perfect subjunctive goes like this:<br /><br />-erim   -erImus<br />-erIs   -erItis<br />-erit   -erint

[mariek]

I just had a thought (yes, that happens once in a while) ... this long/short vowel distinction in the Future Perfect and the Perfect Subjunctive will probably not help me when I'm trying to read authentic texts which don't have any macrons over their vowels. In such a case, how do you determine which verb tense is intended? I'm guessing it would be context ... something I hope to pick up on soon.<br />

[benissimus]

Yes, it really is all about context. Given so many forms for each word, you can only expect that some of them are going to coincide with forms that have completely different meanings or even other words altogether. :-\<br /><br />If you are not catching onto this from however much reading your book gives you, I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader. What works really well is to learn from a good, hard book, and practice just reading (with or without translating) from a fairly easy book. It will do wonders for your comprehension. Most textbooks only offer a little bit of reading and some exercises, but going over a few pages of easier Latin is a great exercise too.

[Keesa]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6604 date=1064355880]<br />If you are not catching onto this from however much reading your book gives you, I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader. What works really well is to learn from a good, hard book, and practice just reading (with or without translating) from a fairly easy book. It will do wonders for your comprehension. Most textbooks only offer a little bit of reading and some exercises, but going over a few pages of easier Latin is a great exercise too.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's a good idea! I'll have to remember that. But I don't think Latin for Beginners ranks as a hard book, does it?

[mariek]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6604 date=1064355880]<br />I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader.[/quote]<br /><br />Is there a particular beginner reader you'd recommend?<br />

[benissimus]

Most of the online ones that I have seen are more intermediate to advanced. I use the Oxford Latin Courses, which are actually meant to be used as texts, but they are so much easier than a typical grammar-oriented text that they can easily be used as readers. I have also seen a similar book called "Ecce Romani" which seems to be reading-oriented as well. Just look around for one of these or see if you can find something else that is significantly below your reading level to practice comprehension with. This does make the transition into reading Latin authors a little more difficult at first, but the benefits of sight reading really will pay off in the long run.

[mariek]

<br />Thanks for the suggestions. Do you have a preference between the Oxford Latin Course and Ecce Romani?<br /><br />

[Episcopus]

The Latin to English translation of the subjunctive always varies according to the context and construction - if you be doing the subjunctive it's imperative that all Latin subjunctiveseses be (sorry, couldn't resist ) translated not literally but in the way that they are meant...if you see what I mean... <br />That's how I do it anyhow.<br /><br />Are you just doing tense forms at the moment or the syntax to go therewith also?

[mariek]

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6849 date=1064512729]<br />Are you just doing tense forms at the moment or the syntax to go therewith also?[/quote]<br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by syntax. I just got all these verb tenses thrown at me, and I'm just trying to sort them out. But I've found that by doing all these exercises, I'm starting to learn the tense endings. The Pluperfect Subjunctive really stands out from the rest.<br /><br />

[Episcopus]

Ah...I see...<br /><br />I think (to risk being slapped) Dr. D'Ooge does it properly. Rather than throw all the tenses at me he did it slowly. And as for the subjunctive, he was sensible in leaving that until the page 140 onwards Syntax section as the meanings of the forms of the subjunctive vary quite a lot. <br /><br />Well that M&F course is supposed to be "Intensive", but not in a stupid way.

[mariek]

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6863 date=1064525070]<br />I think (to risk being slapped) Dr. D'Ooge does it properly. Rather than throw all the tenses at me he did it slowly. And as for the subjunctive, he was sensible in leaving that until the page 140 onwards Syntax section as the meanings of the forms of the subjunctive vary quite a lot. [/quote]<br /><br />Perhaps I should take a look at how D'Ooge presents his subjunctive verbs. Now which page does he start talking about the subjunctive? It's not on Page 140, which is the Formation and Comparison of Adverbs.<br /><br />

[Episcopus]

Ah yes it's more like page 147-150

[mariek]

<br />Thanks. I'll try to print out those pages before I leave work today. It's so difficult to "flip through" pages in a PDF file...<br />

[benissimus]

You can always save bookmarks, but I do find reading from a screen and the pdf interface to be a bit uncomfortable as well.

[Episcopus]

Yes reading latin subjunctive syntax is a little displeasing when on the computer.

[mariek]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=15#7052 date=1064651953]<br />You can always save bookmarks, but I do find reading from a screen and the pdf interface to be a bit uncomfortable as well.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />When I was using Latin for Beginners, I always printed the pages to take with me to and from work. I didn't enjoy studying directly from the PDF file on the computer, however, I would sometimes work out the exercises in a text file on the computer (while reading from the printed version).<br /><br />I just prefer working from a book in printed form.<br /><br />

[Keesa]

Mercifully, I have had long practice in reading books and doing other studies on the computer. My curriculum from the age of twelve was a set of about 200 books on CDs; I worked my way through them, all on the computer. They could have been printed out, but who has that much ink?! <br /><br />Nowadays, I usually only print out "Latin for Beginners," and even then only when I won't have access to the computer for the day.

[Emma_85]

I hope you have a good monitor! My eyes would kill me...

[Keesa]

It's not a bad monitor, as monitors go, but like the rest of us, it has its good days and its bad days...it had an awful time with [face=SPIonic]uios[/face] the other day, but it seems to be better now.

[benissimus]

Oh how lovely....

Videris can mean "you are being seen", "you will have seen", or perfect subjunctive! Latina est gaudium...

[mariek]

Neato mosquito! I haven't done Passives yet; that's coming in Unit 4.