Textkit Logo

IS in english vs latin

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

IS in english vs latin

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:15 am

IS (he) is a demonstrative in latin. In english it is not it
is a pronoun. What is the essential difference between
a pronoun in english and a demonstrative in latin when
it is the same word (IS)? They both replace the person.

English: He is running (he is pronoun)
Latin: IS CURRIT ('is' or 'he' is a demonstrative)

It looks the same to me in application but they are classed
differently.

This was the best I could do online (it makes no sense):

Demonstratives are deictic words (they depend
on an external frame of reference) that indicate
which entities a speaker refers to, and distinguishes
those entities from others. Demonstratives are
usually employed for spatial deixis (using the context
of the physical surroundings), but in many languages
they double as discourse deictics, referring not to
concrete objects but to words, phrases and propositions
mentioned in speech.

The demonstratives in English are this, that, these, and
those, possibly followed by one(s) in case of pronouns,
as explained below.



Do demonstratives in Latin depend on an external frame
of reference. What does deictic mean?

Thanks.
377 gram sent 729 vocab german 850 dutch 83 italian cold 214 spanish 450 roman
17 demo 43 icelandic
User avatar
blutoonwithcarrotandnail
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Postby calvinist » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:50 am

I think you're spending too much time trying to understand Latin by referring to English. The best way to really understand how IS functions in Latin is to read lots of sentences where it's used.... you'll get the feel for how it works. The basic thing to understand though, is that IS has a wider range of meaning than English "he". Just think of it this way, IS can mean "this, that, or he" depending on how it's used..... Don't think IS = "he" it's not that simple. That's why it's called a demonstrative... because essentially it is.. Latin does not have a third person pronoun ("he") like English does and so IS is sometimes used in place of one. Your textbook should have exercises using IS or at least example sentences with the different uses... read through them and see how it works.
User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Postby adrianus » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:09 am

Oxford English Dictionary wrote:deictic, a. and n.

Directly pointing out, demonstrative; in Logic, applied, after Aristotle, to reasoning which proves directly, as opposed to the elenctic, which proves indirectly. Also in Grammar and as n.

1828 WHATELY Rhet. I. ii. §1 Thirdly into ‘Direct’ and ‘Indirect’ (or reductio ad absurdum)—the Deictic and Elenctic of Aristotle. 1876 T. LE M. DOUSE Grimm's L. §31. 66 In meaning, the word originally covered all deiktic action irrespective of direction. 1922 O. JESPERSEN Language xix. 383 The relation between a demonstrative pronoun or a deictic particle and genitival function. 1964 [see ANAPHORA 1b]. 1970 Archivum Linguisticum I. 6 The only exceptions to this restriction are the gen. dat. sg. fem. and the gen. pl. of the deictic theser.

deixis
Grammar.
Indication, pointing out. Cf. DEICTIC a.

1949 Archivum Linguisticum I. II. 181 His analysis of the basic personal pronouns in terms of deixis. 1964 R. A. HALL Introd. Ling. xxvi. 164 The function of pointing out is often called deixis. 1966 G. N. LEECH Eng. in Advertising xviii. 157 The definite article is characteristically employed in advertising in this sense of absolute deixis.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: IS in english vs latin

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:32 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
but in many languages
they double as discourse deictics, referring not to
concrete objects but to words, phrases and propositions
mentioned in speech.




Maybe i missed this which is important. Somebody mentioned
this in another message. Demonstratives refer to something
already previously mentioned. Maybe this is meant by
the quote from above which says, "refering not to concrete
objects but to words mentioned in the speech."

Is it any more deep than this? What is a deictic?

Thanks.
377 gram sent 729 vocab german 850 dutch 83 italian cold 214 spanish 450 roman
17 demo 43 icelandic
User avatar
blutoonwithcarrotandnail
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Re: IS in english vs latin

Postby annis » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:51 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote: Somebody mentioned
this in another message. Demonstratives refer to something
already previously mentioned.


No. Deixis simply "points out," and it can either point to something already mentioned, or something that is about to be. For example, you might start out a quote with, "this is what she said," where the this announces content about to be quoted.

Maybe this is meant by
the quote from above which says, "refering not to concrete
objects but to words mentioned in the speech."


When I speak of this book or that cat, I'm pointing out specific objects as distinct from other objects. However, in many languages I can use deixis not only to refer to objects, but to statements in the conversation, too. For example, "he wants to go to the moon? — that's not possible." Here the demonstrative "that" refer not to an object, but the previous statement.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA

Postby calvinist » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:45 am

To add to what everyone has said, English "he" is not a demonstrative. It's usage is limited to standing in place of a noun (person) already mentioned or implied. Latin "is" functions as an adjective (a demonstrative adj) and can modify a word: "Is vir est amicus meus" --- That man is my friend. Or it can stand alone like a substantive adjective: "Is est amicus meus" --- He ("that one") is my friend. A simple procedure is to translate as "this/that" when it modifies a noun, and translate as "he/she/it" when it stands alone. I don't think you really need to make it anymore complicated than that.
User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Calgacus, Google Adsense [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Shenoute and 98 guests