Reading Virgil

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

I have finished LLPSI II some weeks ago and I've read, as I said some other times, a lot of Martial's stuff, some of Cicero's works (De Amicitia -just finished-, Academica Priora, First Book of De Finibus..., and now I am reading his Tusculan disputations -I am in the middle of the whole thing), Virgil's First and Second Eclogæ and his Culex and Ælius Donatus' commentaries on him and his eclogues, some of humanist stuff, etc.

I would love to read Virgil. I mean, the whole Virgil. I would like to begin again with the Eclogues. I think they are easier than the Æneid, but it's only a supposition. I've the OCT, so I won't need to get my eyes tired when reading from my PC. I would like to know what is better to read at first, which is the best theoretical introduction to Virgil and specially to Latin poetry (meters, scansion, etc. I accept suggestions both BnFand Google Books in French, Italian, English, Spanish or Latin) and your experience with Virgil -because I've only read what I said above and it's not just but beauty and more beauty.

Many thanks,
Gonzalo

[Lucus Eques]

Go with small chunks first! Vergil is dense. I started with the Eclogues — the first one I memorized back in 2005 for my Letteratura Latina class in Florence.

Tityre, tu patulae recubans sub tegmine fagi ...

Listen to this from Viva Voce; a great way to really enjoy the piece:

http://web.archive.org/web/200702051710 ... rgB1-1.mp3

http://web.archive.org/web/200705282324 ... edeljk/VV/

[cb]

hi gonzalo, there are good resources online for reading vergil.

If you want latin paraphrase with latin notes, try a delphini vergil:
http://books.google.com/books?id=bhhBAAAAMAAJ

I also have recently been using this commentary on the eclogues and georgics by keightley 1846:
http://www.archive.org/details/notesonb ... 00keiguoft

for an excellent introduction to latin hexameter, see winbolt 1903:
http://www.archive.org/details/latinhex ... 00winbuoft

as a side point, the delphini editions are v useful for their latin paraphrases and notes; there are lots of them online. I nevertheless prefer hardcopy and was lucky to find a nice delphini vergil this weekend in Amsterdam: if anyone is in Amsterdam, there are some great classics books in a little second-hand bookstore which is two alleys back (i.e. north) from the Spui. here are some pics of the delphini vergil (remove spaces):

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / delphini1 . jpg
www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / delphini2 . jpg
www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / delphini3 . jpg

cheers

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

I thank you two.

First, Luke. I knew those recordings from Evan's site and I like them a lot. But many thanks, since you've reminded it me. Here it's a presentfor you for the care taken and because you were the first in giving a response.

Chad. What can I say? You should have an incredible library, I guess. The same Fortune is not for me -nor money, I guess... Here it΄s my virtual one. Let us be serious. What I appreciate in higher degree is the book on Latin hexameter. I'll post specific doubts when they come. I "know" it by means of hearing it, but I didn't have any theoretical knowledge of it. I will read and work through it as soon as possible.

Regards,
Gonzalo

[cb]

hi gonzalo, thanks v much for the link to your list of google books: i hadn't found online lots of these books before. cheers, chad

[annis]

Here it΄s my virtual one.

We totally need to collect links to the google libraries of those willing to share them.

[MiguelM]

http://books.google.com/books?id=ThoMAAAAIAAJ

I did not know I wanted that until I found it in your e-library!

[thesaurus]

CB, you've done it again with your acquisitions. That Stephani Thesaurus Linguae Latinae looming next to Vergil is almost too much to handle.

I didn't know I could make a digital library on Google Books. Thanks for the start Gonzalo.

[MiguelM]

Speaking of Reading Vergil, does anyone happen to know an edition using the appex or macron for long vowel marking? I'm not worried about syllable length for meter, just naturally long vowels marked. I've looked around for quite a while and can't seem to find anything.

Thanks much!

PS: Gonzalo, Google is hating your library and isn't letting me search it. From what I've seen in regular browsing, though, wow! Congrats!

[Gonzalo]

Ηι,

As for me, I have done LLPSI several times so that I may get "where" the accents fall. I know that it's not at all how Latin verse works but it does help. What I am trying now is to study Latin verse, concretely Latin hexameter from the book shown above in order not to need macrons -and even to be able to compose something. It's going to be hard but I like it. I have started it this very evening and I am now up to the page 30 and I am not getting much troubles. I highly recommend it.
I know an interesting edition (if you have French) which I found here. It seems to be a kind of Pharr's Virgil -I have read commentaries about it here at Textkit. I can see some macrons from the preview.

I cannot remember where it does come from but I saved it in a rtf file a long time ago. I know about a small guide to vowel length (I confess that I haven't study it yet but I am going to do it right now ):

Short Vowels:

a) The vowel comes before another vowel or before ‘h’: deus, nihil.
There are some exceptions, like the 5th declension, but this is a general tendency.
b) The vowel comes before nt, or nd: amandus, innocentia.
There are also exceptions, ‘nūntio’, ‘nūndinae’, ‘nūndinum’, ‘nūntius’, but these are very rare and again, this is a general rule.
c) The vowel comes before m, r, or t at the end of a word.

Long Vowels:

a) Every diphthong is long: ae, au, oe, ei, eu, ui.
b) Every vowel derived from a diphthong is long: conclÅ«dÅ￾, from claudÅ￾.
c) Every vowel formed by contraction from [other vowels] or [vowel + h + vowel] is long: cÅ￾gÅ￾, from co + ago; nÄ«l, from nihil.
d) A vowel which comes before ns or nf is long: cÅ￾nstÄ￾ns, Ä«nferÅ￾.
e) A vowel before nct or nx is usually long: sÄ￾nctus.
f) A vowel before x or ps, the vowel is (most of the time) long: neglÄ“xÄ«, scrÄ«psÄ«, unless it's a noun with no long vowel in its oblique forms (e.g. pÄ￾x, pÄ￾cis; nox, noctis).
g) Vowels before sc are long in almost all cases: nÅ￾sco.
h) A word ending in Ä«, Å￾, or Å«, the last vowel is long.
i) If a word ends in the consonant ‘s’, the last vowel is long: vÄ“ritÄ￾s.
Exceptions to this rule I've found are the nominative singular deus, and sometimes with verbs (‘laudÄ￾vistis, laudÄ￾bitis’).

P.S.: Thanks for your commentary about my virtual library. I update it every day adding new books I find worth to save. I cannot either browse it, I need to use the numbers below.
NOTE: I found that guide at Textkit.

[cantator]

... I would like to know what is better to read at first...

Personally I find the Eclogae tedious in the extreme (#4 excepted). The Aeneid is another matter entirely. I started reading it with Pound's disapproval in mind, but after going through the Pharr edition I've decided that EP was not exactly candid about Virgil. No, Virgil isn't Homer, and Homer is the better poet, but the Aeneid has its own greatness.

... which is the best theoretical introduction to Virgil and specially to Latin poetry (meters, scansion, etc.

Well, Pharr's notes were very helpful to this beginner. I haven't read Servius's commentaries, they may be what you're looking for.

You might also consider Dante's thoughts and attitudes towards Virgil. His relationship to the Master is deep, and much of his use of Virgil can be understood as a commentary from one of the finest minds in the late Medieval period. As an obvious example, Dante's love for Virgil reveals itself throughout the Inferno, as does his critical sense regarding the older poet and his works.

Re: Meter. There's a lot of material on Latin meter, most of it dry as dust and about as interesting. The basics can be learned quickly, but getting good at reading quantitative verse takes some time and a lot of practice. You can also hear many readings now on YouTube and other such sites. Most of them are bad, but all are useful to the student trying to gain an understanding of the art of recitation.

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

I have not had any problem from the three eclogues Ι've read. But, sincerely, Georgics seem to need of a kind of Master in Agriculture to be read. As for the Dante, I have not read yet the whole Commedia but I am refreshing my Italian by means of listening to to radio and reading from Leopardi´s Zibaldone and I wish to read more deep Italian in some weeks.
I'll read Servius' commentaries.

Many thanks again for your inestimable help.

Gonzalo

[thesaurus]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have a decent way of preparing themselves to read the Comedia? I've taught myself enough Italian to read straightforward, non-literary texts, but I can see that I'm in way over my head when I try to read Dante. How do I make this transition? What sorts of appreciable differences are there between modern and older Italian? Is it mostly just the vocabulary (which I'm very weak on)? What's a good dictionary for this? The same goes for Petrarch...

It's funny that I much prefer reading the Latin works of Dante, Boccaccio, and Petrarca, because I have a much easier time doing so.

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

For specific information, our Luke (Lucus Eques) will tell you a lot of things, because he has studied Letteratura at Italy some time but I could give you some general information (in fact, links). For me, I would like to read again Ariosto'sOrlando furioso before take the Dante.

You can read this from the blog of Antonio Saccoccio, a friend of mine who teaches literature.

The world of Dante
The Princeton Dante Project.
Darmouth Dante Project
Dante Online
Study Guide to Dante
Digital Dante
Progetto Dante Alighieri

I hope it helps,
Gonzalo

[Gonzalo]

Speaking of Reading Vergil, does anyone happen to know an edition using the appex or macron for long vowel marking? I'm not worried about syllable length for meter, just naturally long vowels marked. I've looked around for quite a while and can't seem to find anything.

Thanks much!

PS: Gonzalo, Google is hating your library and isn't letting me search it. From what I've seen in regular browsing, though, wow! Congrats!

Ehem... excuse me. We always forget our beloved Oerbergian editions.
Take a look at the edition shown here. There are some pages from the Æneid and the Eclogæ available to be read. I'll order it from a book-shop here in Madrid.

Regards,
Gonzalo

[MiguelM]

Oh, do forgive my lack of specification: I meant of the Eclogues. I have the pleasure of owning the Oerberg edition of the First and Fourth Cantos, and it's been of immense value -- not only for the traditional Oerberg notation, but mostly because of the macrons. I did not know he had the same for the Eclogues!

[cantator]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone have a decent way of preparing themselves to read the Comedia?

I followed (again) Ezra Pound's advice and acquired the Temple edition of the Commedia. That edition includes the original text with an English prose translation. I started by reading as much of the Italian as I could manage without reference to the original. I've since read the Inferno about a dozen times, and each time I need the gloss less and less. (I've also read the Purgatorio and Paradiso a couple times each.)

I've also spent some time reading La Vita Nuova and various poems by Cavalcanti. I can read modern Italian okay, but I'm more familiar with Dante's Medieval Tuscan.

It's funny that I much prefer reading the Latin works of Dante, Boccaccio, and Petrarca, because I have a much easier time doing so.

Latinate constructions abound in the Commedia. Pound saw them, noting however that they were not nearly the curse to Dante's poetry that they are to Milton's. Such constructions are indeed more natural to Italian, but you'll still do some head-scratching until you recognize Dante's Latinity occasionally intruding into the versification.

I've read some of Dante's Latin works, mostly the De Vulgari Eloquentia and some of his poems in the language (the Eclogae). His Italian should come relatively easily if you already have a strong background in Latin.

See Gonzalo's excellent list of materials for further studies. Be sure to visit the Princeton site, it's a great place for students of Dante and his works.

[thesaurus]

Gratias vobis plurimas, Cantator Gonzaloque, ago!

Thank you for your exceedingly helpful hints. May I ask where you are gleaning all this advice from Pound? I can't say I'm a fan of avant-garde poetry, but I love reading literary criticism from such minds.

[cantator]

May I ask where you are gleaning all this advice from Pound? I can't say I'm a fan of avant-garde poetry, but I love reading literary criticism from such minds.

I wouldn't call Pound an avant-garde poet, he's been dead too long.

His literary canon is well-represented in these books:

Literary Essays - Includes the notable essays on Elizabethan translations from Latin and on early translators of Homer (French, Latin, and English).

ABC Of Reading - The first book I ever read by EP. I felt so ignorant after reading it that I embarked on a desultory course of self-study that's involved me for the past 35+ years. Yes, I'm a slow learner.

Guide To Kulchur - Not so well-organized as the volume of literary essays but still good.

You might also like to check out Basil Bunting's critical writings:

Basil Bunting On Poetry

Of course Longinus and Horace are must-reads if you're looking for literary criticism from the ancient world.

And if you'd like a bit of prescience from EP on another topic entirely :

ABC Of Economics - A rather disjointed look at money, but quite valuable as a spur to consideration. Alas, it's also almost impossible to find now.

As an aside: I started studying Latin seriously as the result of a double impact. At about the same time I read Pound I also heard Carl Orff's Carmina Burana. I just had to find what all that was about.

"Ego sum abbas Cucaniensis..." indeed.

[Gonzalo]

May I ask where you are gleaning all this advice from Pound? I can't say I'm a fan of avant-garde poetry, but I love reading literary criticism from such minds.

I wouldn't call Pound an avant-garde poet, he's been dead too long.

His literary canon is well-represented in these books:

Literary Essays - Includes the notable essays on Elizabethan translations from Latin and on early translators of Homer (French, Latin, and English).

ABC Of Reading - The first book I ever read by EP. I felt so ignorant after reading it that I embarked on a desultory course of self-study that's involved me for the past 35+ years. Yes, I'm a slow learner.

Guide To Kulchur - Not so well-organized as the volume of literary essays but still good.

You might also like to check out Basil Bunting's critical writings:

Basil Bunting On Poetry

Of course Longinus and Horace are must-reads if you're looking for literary criticism from the ancient world.

And if you'd like a bit of prescience from EP on another topic entirely :

ABC Of Economics - A rather disjointed look at money, but quite valuable as a spur to consideration. Alas, it's also almost impossible to find now.

As an aside: I started studying Latin seriously as the result of a double impact. At about the same time I read Pound I also heard Carl Orff's Carmina Burana. I just had to find what all that was about.

"Ego sum abbas Cucaniensis..." indeed.

Virgil, Dante, and now here we go with Ezra Pound. Some links which I have to share with you:

Provenca ; poems selected from Personae, Exultations, and Canzoniere of Ezra Pound ([c1910])
Umbra : the early poems of Ezra Pound (1920)
Canzoni; & Ripostes of Ezra Pound (1913)
Lustra of Ezra Pound (1916)
Antheil and the Treatise on harmony, with supplementary notes (1927)
Personae [poems] (1909)
Instigations. Together with an essay on the Chinese written character
Quia pauper amavi ([1919])
Ego scriptor cantinelae
BLAST

Regards,
Gonzalo

P.S.: In a certain manner, gli stil-novisti were also avant-garde writers...

[annis]

Virgil, Dante, and now here we go with Ezra Pound.

I have not read Pound's poetry much, but his literary criticism is sometimes baffling. The things he says about Chinese make Sinologists cry, and some of his comments about Greek authors make me wonder how well he knew Greek.

Back to Dante... one of my interests is Old Occitan, a.k.a Old Provençal, and the literature of the Troubadors. Dante himself drops into OOc in a few places in the Divine Comedy. One nice selection of works is The Troubadours of Dante which has an intro, text selections, a grammar and vocabulary. OOc should present no trouble to anyone who already knows a Romance language, except perhaps the seemingly random spelling fluctuations.

[cantator]

I have not read Pound's poetry much, but his literary criticism is sometimes baffling. The things he says about Chinese make Sinologists cry, and some of his comments about Greek authors make me wonder how well he knew Greek.

I doubt he knew either very well, not as professional scholars would know them. The monograph on Chinese character script is truly weird to professionals, but poets can still learn things from it (just not very much about Chinese). I imagine that his Greek was whatever Hamilton College offered at that time. Again, his linguistic abilities may be suspect, but his critical canon is sound at core and rather conservative. After all, nobody ever got fired for recommending Homer.

[cantator]

Virgil, Dante, and now here we go with Ezra Pound. Some links which I have to share with you:
[snip]

Gonzalo amice,

Gratias multas ago tibi! I spent a couple of hours yesterday going through the Blast material, it had been a long time since I last saw those editions. My sincere (and belated) thanks for posting those links.

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

Nevermind, Cantator. It´s a pleasure indeed. I love those avant-garde movements and I myself have translated some manifestos of thenet.futurism present movement. Take a look here.

And, by the way, I am reading besides Italo Svevo (I´ve began "Una vita" and when I finish it I want to read "La coscienza di Zeno"), also Dante´s Comedia and this page is being really useful because offers great introductions and commentaries. I have a Spanish-Italian edition which I bought last week and I read three or four chants per day. First I read the Spanish one and then the Italian one. I think that Dante´s Italian is much more easy to me than Modern Italian (I did Assimil + Pimsleur and now I have a good skill on it) because Dante´s Italian or fiorentino is very similar to Spanish. As we are in a Classics forum, take a look at this beautiful article by Italo Calvino: Perché leggere i classici. I have enjoyed it.

Regards,
Gonzalo

[Lucus Eques]

Oh, do forgive my lack of specification: I meant of the Eclogues. I have the pleasure of owning the Oerberg edition of the First and Fourth Cantos, and it's been of immense value -- not only for the traditional Oerberg notation, but mostly because of the macrons. I did not know he had the same for the Eclogues!

Whoa, what Ørberg version of the Eclogues? or cantos? say again?

And yes, on Dante, an annotated Commedia with Italian notes is what you want — full immersion, baby, and just as good as what the modern Florentines get. I fear I have no such book in mind, but doubtless a trip to an Italian bookstore online could yield the desired result.

[thesaurus]

And yes, on Dante, an annotated Commedia with Italian notes is what you want — full immersion, baby, and just as good as what the modern Florentines get. I fear I have no such book in mind, but doubtless a trip to an Italian bookstore online could yield the desired result.

I came across this while hoping to figure out a little Dante via Italiano: http://books.google.com/books?id=isIRAA ... 22#PPA3,M1

I don't know if it's any good, but it has lots of commentary and the entire Commedia.

[cantator]

I came across this while hoping to figure out a little Dante via Italiano: http://books.google.com/books?id=isIRAA ... 22#PPA3,M1

I don't know if it's any good, but it has lots of commentary and the entire Commedia.

More commentary than Commedia, I think.

Many thanks to Thesaurus, another neat find. I'll use it next time I go through the DC.