Thucydides ?

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Swth\r
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Thucydides ?

Post by Swth\r » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:39 pm

Perhaps you can help me get out of this... I am trying to understand the meaning of the following (The phrase is from Thucydides, A,136):

καὶ á¼￾λθόντος οá½￾ πολὺ ὕστεÏ￾ον τοῦ Ἀδμήτου δηλοῖ τε á½…Ï‚ á¼￾στι καὶ οá½￾κ ἀξιοῖ, εἴ τι ἄÏ￾α αá½￾τὸς ἀντεῖπεν αá½￾Ï„á¿· Ἀθηναίων δεομένῳ, φεÏ￾γοντα τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι. καὶ γὰÏ￾ ἄν ὑπ' á¼￾κείνου πολλῷ ἀσθενεστέÏ￾ου á¼￾ν Ï„á¿· παÏ￾όντι κακῶς πάσχειν, γενναῖον δὲ εἶναι τοὺς á½￾μοίους ἀπὸ τοῦ ἴσου τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι.

I would like to hear your opinion about the participle "φεÏ￾γοντα". Specifically, I have some thoughts...:
1. Is it possible to be an attributive one or not? I mean since there is no article... :roll:
2. If yes, what should be the subject? :roll:
3. Can it be equal to a noun (with no definite article), e.g "φυγάδα" :roll:
4. If it is circumstantial, what kind can it be?

Swth\r
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Re: Thucydides ?

Post by Swth\r » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:42 pm

Swth\r wrote:καὶ á¼￾λθόντος οá½￾ πολὺ ὕστεÏ￾ον τοῦ Ἀδμήτου δηλοῖ τε á½…Ï‚ á¼￾στι καὶ οá½￾κ ἀξιοῖ, εἴ τι ἄÏ￾α αá½￾τὸς ἀντεῖπεν αá½￾Ï„á¿· Ἀθηναίων δεομένῳ, φεÏ￾γοντα τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι. καὶ γὰÏ￾ ἄν ὑπ' á¼￾κείνου πολλῷ ἀσθενεστέÏ￾ου á¼￾ν Ï„á¿· παÏ￾όντι κακῶς πάσχειν, γενναῖον δὲ εἶναι τοὺς á½￾μοίους ἀπὸ τοῦ ἴσου τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι.


So, when after a while Admetos came (back), he (=Themistocles) presented himself and he did not think he deserved to be punished while in exile, if perhaps once upon a time he said something against him (=Admetos), when he (=Admetos) was asking Athenians for help.

I have translated the first colon as above, but I can not still understand the use of the participle "φεÏ￾γοντα"... Why in accusative, if it has the same subject with the verb "αξιοί"? Wouldn't it be more natural to say "φεÏ￾γων"?
Is it possible that something should be implied (eg. the accusative "εαυτόν") as object of the verb "αξιοί", subject of the infinitive "τιμωÏ￾είσθαι" and the participle "φεÏ￾γοντα" ? Or maybe "ουκ αξιοί" is equal to an impersonal verb like "ουκ άξιόν εστι" (or better "ουκ άξιον είναι φησι")? I have never met something like this before...

Any idea???

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Re: Thucydides ?

Post by annis » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:03 am

Swth\r wrote:Is it possible that something should be implied (eg. the accusative "εαυτόν") as object of the verb "αξιοί", subject of the infinitive "τιμωÏ￾είσθαι" and the participle "φεÏ￾γοντα" ?


Exactly! καὶ οá½￾κ ἀξιοῖ, εἴ τι ἄÏ￾α αá½￾τὸς ἀντεῖπεν αá½￾τῶι Ἀθηναίων δεομένωι, φεÏ￾γοντα τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι, and he thought it unworthy, if (since) he himself had denied him something when asking from the Athenians, to take vengeance on him in exile.

Quite the anaphora pile-up in this one. In any case, when you see accusative attributes (participles, adjectives) with an infinitive it is often safe to suspect the subject of the infinitive has been dropped.
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Post by Swth\r » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:05 am

Thanks! Your translation is certainly much accurate than mine. :oops:
The truth is that I came to this after a lot of consideration...

But could you (or someone else) explain to me why the syntax does not go like "και ουκ αξιοί φεÏ￾γων τιμωÏ￾είσθαι"?
Ι supposed that the infinitive lies here in passive mood... Or not? So you suggest, if I have understood your point, that the infinitive is here active (in middle voice) and it's subject is "Admeton" or an implied pronoun in accusative, and it's object, which is again implied in accusative, is also the subject of the participle. Am I right?
Thus, my question is: is the difference between "ουκ αξιώ (εγώ) φεÏ￾γων τιμωÏ￾είσθαι" and "ουκ αξιώ (σε) τιμωÏ￾είσθαι (με) φεÏ￾γοντα" only a syntax variation (active-passive syntax of the infinitive) or something else? :roll:

Thanks in advance!

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Post by annis » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:46 pm

Swth\r wrote:Ι supposed that the infinitive lies here in passive mood... Or not? So you suggest, if I have understood your point, that the infinitive is here active (in middle voice) and it's subject is "Admeton" or an implied pronoun in accusative, and it's object, which is again implied in accusative, is also the subject of the participle. Am I right?


That is what I meant, but it turns out to be wrong. I was so freaked out the first time I saw acc-participle modifying unstated subject of an infinitive that I still see it lurking in the shadows years later.. The infinitive is middle, but I think the subject is unspecified, and φεÏ￾γοντα the hapless object.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Swth\r » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:54 am

annis wrote:That is what I meant, but it turns out to be wrong. I was so freaked out the first time I saw acc-participle modifying unstated subject of an infinitive that I still see it lurking in the shadows years later.. The infinitive is middle, but I think the subject is , and φεÏ￾γοντα the hapless object.


I haven' t yet understood your point.
So you say that "φεÏ￾γοντα" is an attributive participle without article used as an object? This was what came in my mind at first. The subject of "τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι" is unspecified syntactically, ok. But logically the subject is "Ἄδμητος", isn' t it?

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Post by IreneY » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:01 pm

I also took it for "Ἀδμητον τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι Θεμιστοκλήν φεÏ￾γοντα" with the participle translated something like "being in exile", "now that he's in exile".

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Post by Swth\r » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:52 am

Swth\r wrote:
annis wrote:That is what I meant, but it turns out to be wrong. I was so freaked out the first time I saw acc-participle modifying unstated subject of an infinitive that I still see it lurking in the shadows years later.. The infinitive is middle, but I think the subject is , and φεÏ￾γοντα the hapless object.


I haven' t yet understood your point.
So you say that "φεÏ￾γοντα" is an attributive participle without article used as an object? This was what came in my mind at first. The subject of "τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι" is unspecified syntactically, ok. But logically the subject is "Ἄδμητος", isn' t it?


Or perhaps you mean that "φεÏ￾γοντα" means here "someone in exile", indefinitely (as I thought it might be in my first post, and) as it is understood from the text following (that is "τοὺς á½￾μοίους")?

I also have problem trying to comprehend the transforming into direct speech of this:

καὶ γὰÏ￾ ἄν ὑπ' á¼￾κείνου πολλῷ ἀσθενεστέÏ￾ου á¼￾ν Ï„á¿· παÏ￾όντι κακῶς πάσχειν, γενναῖον δὲ εἶναι τοὺς á½￾μοίους ἀπὸ τοῦ ἴσου τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι.

Is it...
καὶ γὰÏ￾ ἄν ὑπὸ πολλῷ ἀσθενεστέÏ￾ου σοῦ νῦν κακῶς ἔπάσχον, γενναῖον δ΄á¼￾στὶ τοὺς á½￾μοίους ἀπὸ τοῦ ἴσου τιμωÏ￾εῖσθαι... ???

I have changed the adverbial prepositional phrase "á¼￾ν Ï„á¿· παÏ￾όντι" to "νῦν". Is it correct (next to unreality mood), or even necessary (: is its meaning temporal of situational)? And I read "ἄν κακῶς πάσχειν" as "ἄν κακῶς ἒπασχον", not "ἄν κακῶς πάσχοιμι"...
Dives qui sapiens est...

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