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Examples of the Demonstrative IS

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Examples of the Demonstrative IS

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:27 pm

Can anybody give me an example of the demonstrative
IS being used in the Dative and the Ablative?

Thanks.
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Postby timeodanaos » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:03 pm

eo die promisit ei.

'On that day, he/she promised him/her (something).
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:36 pm

And how about one in the ablative?

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Postby convector » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:55 pm

I believe that "eo die" is ablative.
"Ei" is a dative, but here it is being used as a personal pronoun, not a demonstrative pronoun.

An example in the dative might be;

Eo die, promisti ei magistro librum.
On that day you promised a book to that teacher.
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:28 pm

timeodanaos wrote:eo die promisit ei.

'On that day, he/she promised him/her (something).


So is 'EO DIE' ablative here?

'EI' is in the Dative correct but it is being used as a personal pronoun
and not a demonstrative?

If you change the sentence to, "EO DIE, PROMISTI EI MAGISTRO LIBRUM," then EI is now in the Dative and it is a demonstrative not a personal pronoun?

Thanks.
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Postby convector » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:07 am

That's what I understand but I'm no expert.
"Eo die" is an ablative of time.

"Magistro" is an indirect object (dative) with the demonstrative pronoun "ei".

Any one else with an opinion on this?
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:05 pm

Why is it that demonstratives are used to stress things such
as in the sentence:

EO DIE PROMISITI EI MAGISTRO LIBRUM

but that there is nothing really that special about EI
in this sentence as deserving stress

I would expect in english for stress to be considered:

Statement: That guy did it
Question: Which guy?
Statement: That guy!

Here you see it as stressed. But what is so deserving stress
about the use

EO DIE PROMISITI EI MAGISTRO LIBRUM

On THAT day you promised a book to THE teacher

Thanks.
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Postby spiphany » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:33 pm

Demonstratives don't primarily indicate stress. What they do is help pick out which object is being referred to (from demonstrare = to show), i.e., this object over here as opposed to that one over there. They can indicate distance from speaker or addressee, or how recently something was brought up in discourse (that teacher, the one we've been talking about).

They can be used to add emphasis, but don't have to.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:46 pm

spiphany wrote:Demonstratives don't primarily indicate stress. What they do is help pick out which object is being referred to (from demonstrare = to show), i.e., this object over here as opposed to that one over there. They can indicate distance from speaker or addressee,

or how recently something was brought up in discourse (that teacher, the one we've been talking about).


They can be used to add emphasis, but don't have to.


When you say discourse are you refering to a special type of speech?
Or are you simply refering to the object origianlly noted showing
up later in the sentence

Does spoken Latin from ancient times use alot of demonstratives in
common speech or are they rare in general?

Thanks.
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Postby spiphany » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:10 pm

Sorry, 'discourse' is simply a way of talking about any extended use of language -- a story, a conversation, etc. -- and the way it presents various types of information. For example, you typically don't just start a story with "John" without giving your listener some information about who he is. This is where demonstratives come in -- they help us orient ourselves.

I haven't read enough Latin prose to give any sort of authoritative judgment about the frequency of demonstratives, but my impression is that they're not particularly rare, any more than "this" and "that" are in English.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Postby convector » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:17 pm

I don't think that demonstratives are rare in Latin, but I see the "hic, haec, hoc" and the "ille, illa, illed" forms of the demonstratives used more often than "is, ea, id".
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