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Plato Symposium 178a3-5

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Plato Symposium 178a3-5

Postby vir litterarum » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:03 pm

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Re: Plato Symposium 178a3-5

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:24 pm

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Postby vir litterarum » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:42 pm

That definitely is a possibility, but doesn't the inversely attracted demonstrative tend to precede the relative to which it is attracted? Here is the translation from the Penguin edition by Christopher Gill:

"But I'll tell you the speeches of the people he remembered best and that I thought most important."

Now I have no idea how he derived this from the text, but it seems that he wants to take "toutwn" as referring to the speakers.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:16 pm

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Re: Plato Symposium 178a3-5

Postby IreneY » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:18 am

Last edited by IreneY on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cb » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:30 am

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Postby vir litterarum » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:32 am

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Postby cb » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:50 am

hi, μεμνῆσθαι can either take the acc. or the gen. in attic, with a slight difference in sense which smyth describes in s1358:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... =&loc=1358

smyth's explanation there of the sense of the acc. fits the context of the quote (i.e. remembering the whole of the speeches he heard), and for me plato's use of μάλιστα with the acc. relative supports this.

for refs to attic texts using the acc. with μεμνῆσθαι (smyth doesn't give any in s1358), see e.g. LSJ, μιμνήσκω, II B:

http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

cheers :)
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Postby vir litterarum » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:30 pm

So πάντων here means something more like "neither did Aristodemus bethink himself of all the things...", while the accusative of the relative with the verb means to remember?
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Re: Plato Symposium 178a3-5

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:00 pm

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Postby cb » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:59 pm

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Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:17 pm

Last edited by modus.irrealis on Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IreneY » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:54 pm

Nah! Diffferent subject of verb and infinitive right?

I actually found time to read the phrase within its context and I think I changed my mind.

"Those (things, whatever) that were worthy of mention and (the words, whatever) of those that I deemed worthy of mention (with axiomnemoneuton referring to the words), of these I will tell you (the words).

As "words, whatever" I translate "logos". It seems clumsy in English but it worked for me while I was reading it :D

Mind you, "reason" as in "argument" I guess could stand. I think. One of these days I will really give this the attention it requires I promise. :)
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Postby vir litterarum » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:55 am

Isn't the partitive genitive a form of the adnominal genitive or used after certain verbs of filling, etc.? How can one express part from the whole with an adverb?
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Postby cb » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:36 pm

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Postby vir litterarum » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:47 pm

I understand now. Thank you so much for the explication. I was most disappointed at Dover's gloss on the passage.
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Postby cb » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:00 pm

hi vir lit., no probs. i agree, modern commentaries can often be useless when they discuss everything except the parts you find hard (sometimes i think this is no co-incidence).

ancient commentaries on aristotle grind through every sentence and so i find they are far more useful than many modern commentaries. fraenkel's commentary on aeschylus' agamemnon is an exception though: it's v helpful because it discusses the history of how various classicists interpreted almost each line and their respective arguments.

cheers :)
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Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:02 pm

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Postby cb » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:47 am

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Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:00 pm

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Re: Plato Symposium 178a3-5

Postby Swth\r » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:44 pm

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