Textkit Logo

Need a little LL love...

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Need a little LL love...

Postby cdm2003 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:20 am

Hi all...

I'm having a spot of trouble with a sentence from LL vol. 2, chap. XLII, lines 151 to 154:

Tum Sabinae mulieres, quarum ex iniuria bellum ortum erat, crinibus passis scissaque veste--victo malis muliebri pavore--ausae sunt se inter tela volantia inferre.

My problem is with the four words in bold. The remainer of the line I translate as "Then the Sabine women, from whose injury the war had begun, with disheveled hair and torn clothes, dared to put themselves amongst the flying weapons." As for the other clause, I'm thinking something close to "their womanly fear conquered by..." but I have no idea how to translate "malis." I'm assuming it's not "their womanly fear conquered by evils" or "by apples." :shock:

Anyway, it's probably a simple question but I'm at a loss for answers...any help is greatly appreciated in advance.

Thanks,
Chris
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
User avatar
cdm2003
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

Postby Kasper » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:53 am

it means something like: "... their womanly fear of (these) evils / bad things having been overcome ..."

Although i would have thought that 'of bad things' should be genitive, it is probably alright to use the ablative. It also happens with words like plenus (full), which can take either the genitive or ablative, although I believe the genitive is more common.

(query whether 'malis' refers to the passis crinibus or volantia tela...)
Kasper
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne

Postby Twpsyn » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:46 am

I would say their womanly fear has been overcome by their misfortunes. The implication being that now they are able to lob projectiles without swooning, &c. So it is ablative of cause or agent, taken with victo.
Twpsyn
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:30 am
Location: Head: in the clouds

Postby cdm2003 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:56 pm

Thank you both...I appreciate the help. I'm finding chapter XLII very tough.

Chris
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
User avatar
cdm2003
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

Postby adrianus » Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:20 pm

Yes. And isn't the word order nice? When you dramatically say in English "with wómanly fear overcóme by misfortunes", does your tone and pitch rise on average so that "overcóme by misfortunes" averages higher than "womanly fear"? And is "womanly" emphasized over "fear" in the first, but "overcome" emphasized over "misfortunes" in the second. That is Orberg's Latin word order : ("overcome" > "misfortunes") > ("womanly" > "fear"). Reading the Latin phrase, your pitch drops to the end on average, but in English it rises.

Ità, et nonnè placet ordo verborum? Si dicabis anglicè et dramaticè "with wómanly fear overcóme by misfortunes", nonnè surget tonus inter womanly fear" et "overcóme by misfortunes"? Et nonnè plus vim habet primò "womanly" quàm "fear", secundò "overcome" quàm "misfortunes"? En Latinè ordo verborum apud Orberg: (victo > malis) > (muliebri > pavore). Cum anglicè tonus ortus erit, latinam autem clausulam in legendo declinabat.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Postby cdm2003 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:42 pm

Well, considering that the entire story revolves around a She-Wolf-raised fratricidal rapist whose Stockholm-Syndrome-Suffering victims call their rapists and parents together for a big group hug, I think Orberg's word order is the least Rome's problems. :wink:

Thanks again for the help.
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
User avatar
cdm2003
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

Postby adrianus » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:53 am

It is recommended to all victims of violence that, if you cannot move away or successfully fight back, you engage your assailant in a way that personalizes and distracts. Word order has great power to do both, as well as to confuse, so embrace the knowledge and exploit it to your advantage. A last resort is to engage one's assailant in a discussion of word order itself. You underestimate the power of word order, cdm2003. Try fighting a lawyer. :wink:

Si agressorem infringere vel evadere non possis, quòd ei conseras commendatum est, ità ut situatio personalis et deflectens fiat. Quàm benè cura ad ordinem verborum amb attingat, et alium praetereà confundat. Scientiam ordinis verborum ideò tenes et eam finibus tuis regas. Et nullam rem ad effugiendum fabulando de ipse verborum ordine meliorem esse velis. Potestatem, cdm2003, huius rei malè putas. Jureconsultum pugnare coneris. :wink:
Last edited by adrianus on Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Postby cdm2003 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:43 am

adrianus wrote:It is recommended to all victims of violence that, if you cannot move away or successfully fight back, you engage your assailant in a way that personalizes and distracts. Word order has great power to do both, as well as to confuse, so embrace the knowledge and exploit it to your advantage. A last resort is to engage one's assailant in a discussion of word order itself. You underestimate the power of word order, cdm2003. Try fighting a lawyer. :wink:


Ha!!
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae
User avatar
cdm2003
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Craig_Thomas, Dominus Faba and 37 guests