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Substatative Pronoun: IPSE

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Substatative Pronoun: IPSE

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:22 pm

What is a substatative pronoun? Does this simply mean that
IPSE replaced the noun or is there something more to it?

Something like 'They themselves will fight to the death," instead of
"The men will fight to the death."

Thanks.
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Postby calvinist » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:07 pm

I've never heard the term substantive pronoun... seems kind of redundant. "Substantive" is usually used to describe a word that is not a noun but is functioning as one. IPSE is the intensive pronoun and it usually functions like an adjective, meaning it stands next to a noun and agrees with it in case, number, gender. IPSE can, however, stand alone if it's antecedent is in the verb.. for instance: id ipse timeo. - "I myself fear it."
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:25 am

"Substantive" means "having substance" or "denoting a substance", so "ego", "tu", "sui" are substantive pronouns and "meus ", "ipse", "noster" are pronoun adjectives.
"Substantiam habens" vel "substantiam denotans" significat "substantivum" dictio, ut "ego", "tu", "sui". Sunt adjectivi pronomines itá: "meus", "ipse", noster".
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:57 pm

If substantative means that it replaces the noun then in the following
sentence:

We ourselves will fight to the death

What noun did IPSE replace? It did not replace 'death'. Is it the
people involved (ourselves full names) which it is replacing?

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:33 pm

Here ipse is not a substantive pronoun, it is an adjectival pronoun (an intensive adjectival pronoun),—as an adjective, it qualifies a noun. In your sentence, it qualifies the substantive pronoun "we".

Hic "substantivum pronomen" ipse non est, sed pronomen adjectivum (et exemplum pronominis intentionis). Ut adjectivum, nomini adicitur. In tuâ sententiâ, pronomini substantivo "we" anglicè adicitur.
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:46 pm

I checked my textbook and it turns out i was wrong. SUI is a
substantative pronoun. If this is the case then in the following
sentence:

He doesn't understand himself
IS NON INTELLIGENT SE

then if 'SE' is a substatative pronoun then that is because it is
replacing the actual persons name, like as if it were originally
written:

John doesn't undertand himself

Now 'John' is a substatative pronoun of 'SE' and was replaced.

Is this correct?

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:01 pm

Yes, Blutoonwithcarrotandnail.
Ità est, Canorcaerulecarotâclavoque.

The following are substantives:
Substantivi sunt itá:
Ego, me, mei, mihi, me
Tu, te, tui, tibi, te
Se, sui, sibi, se
Nos, nostrûm/nostri, nobis
Vos, vestrûm/vestri, vobis

Nota benè, erravisti:
Blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:He doesn't understand himself
IS NON INTELLIGENT SE
Scribi oportet:
Is non se intelligit = "he (that one) does not understand himself"
vel
Ei non se intelligunt = "They (those ones) do not understand themselves"
vel
Ei non se intelligent = "They (those ones) will not understand themselves"
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:59 pm

When you wrote:

Yes, Blutoonwithcarrotandnail.
Ità est, Canorcaerulecarotâclavoque.

Are you saying that 'SE' is a substantative pronoun because it is indeed
replacing the noun - the guys name - such as 'John'


What you are saying is that the sentence should really be written
to be correct:

IS NON SE INTELLIGIT
He doesnt understand himself

If this is true than is 'SE' a substatative pronoun because it replaced
the persons true name, such as 'John'

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:23 pm

Yes x 3, blutoonwithcarrotandnail. Ter etiam, Canorcaerulecarotâclavoque.
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