Doubts from Athenaze (till chapter eleven)

[Gonzalo]

ΧαίÏ￾ετε, ὦ ἀγαπητοί φίλοι, τί Ï€Ï￾άττετε ὑμεῖς;

I’ve been working this summer through Vivarium Novum Athenaze and I am now up to chapter eleven –where things get more complicated, so I have done a review (I have read those ten chapters yesterday) in order not to let things unclear because my aim is the same as in Lingua Latina (getting a real grasp of the language). I have come across some things about which I am very doubtful. Greek quotes have been written by me, so if there is any fault is mine. Of course, I have got a lot of other doubts but I was able to solve them by myself. I cannot do so with these ones.

Ι.- Ὁ δ΄Ὀδυσσεὺς κελεÏ￾ει αá½￾τοὺς Ï„á½°Ï‚ αἶγας λαμβάνειν εἰς τὴν ἑαυτῶν ναῦν.
I have a doubt about double accusative plus infinitive as is shown here. Is always the subject of the subordinate clause to be located as near as possible to the main verb in order to denote who has to do such a thing or there is any exception (e. g. If the subject of the subordinate clause is understood to be human as in that above)?

II- ἡ γὰÏ￾ ἀνάγκη αá½￾τοὺς ἔχει.
I understand that this means “It is necessary for themâ€￾ but I think that it is said in a figurative sense as in Λιμὀς γὰÏ￾ λαμβάνει αá½￾τοὺς. Am I right? Are there other idioms, expressions, &c.? Are there as well as in in Latin "gratulandi and salutandi formulæ" or other "useful expressions"?

III.- δ΄á½￾δός
I do use reconstructed pronunciation, so how should I pronounce that? I say as if it were θ΄á½￾δός but I don’t know if I’m right. Why is not it written as in θ΄á½￾δός? Maybe in order not to mix it with τ΄á½￾δός?

IV.- τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως / τοῦ ἄστεως
The διphthong εως is a great problem to me. I wish someone could solve this to make it more clear for me because in τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως I suppose that there is an hiatus, Ὀ-δυσ-σέως but in ἄστεως I believe that there are only two syllables, ἄσ-τεως because if there were not any hiatus it should be accented as follows: ἀστέως.

Regards and many thanks in advance,
Gonzalo

[Edited: αἶγας for αἰγὰς]

[annis]

Ι.- Ὁ δ΄Ὀδυσσεὺς κελεÏ￾ει αá½￾τοὺς Ï„á½°Ï‚ αἰγὰς λαμβάνειν εἰς τὴν ἑαυτῶν ναῦν.
I have a doubt about double accusative plus infinitive as is shown here. Is always the subject of the subordinate clause to be located as near as possible to the main verb in order to denote who has to do such a thing or there is any exception

Nope. You'll have to rely on sense. I can't say that I've ever run into an acc.+inf. clause including an object acc. which I found it hard to determine the subject for.

II- ἡ γὰÏ￾ ἀνάγκη αá½￾τοὺς ἔχει.
I understand that this means “It is necessary for themâ€￾ but I think that it is said in a figurative sense as in Λιμὀς γὰÏ￾ λαμβάνει αá½￾τοὺς. Am I right? Are there other idioms, expressions, &c.? Are there as well as in in Latin "gratulandi and salutandi formulæ" or other "useful expressions"?

I keep a notebook for things like this, but I know of no nice list published anywhere. Close reading of the LSJ will usually bring these out.

III.- δ΄á½￾δός
I do use reconstructed pronunciation, so how should I pronounce that? I say as if it were θ΄á½￾δός but I don’t know if I’m right. Why is not it written as in θ΄á½￾δός? Maybe in order not to mix it with τ΄á½￾δός?

I just give the delta and the aspiration their natural values and the pronunciation falls out of that -d-h-. I wouldn't use -θ-, even if that change did seem to occur in one word, οá½￾δείς vs. οá½￾θείς.

IV.- τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως / τοῦ ἄστεως
The διphthong εως is a great problem to me. I wish someone could solve this to make it more clear for me because in τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως I suppose that there is an hiatus, Ὀ-δυσ-σέως but in ἄστεως I believe that there are only two syllables, ἄσ-τεως because if there were not any hiatus it should be accented as follows: ἀστέως.

-εω- is never a diphthong. The accenting of ἄστεως is modeled on the -ι- declension, as in πόλις, πόλεως. Homer sometimes had the genitive as πόληος. At some point "quantitative metathesis" occured — the swapping not of two sounds (metathesis) but of vowel quantities. But, even though that put a long vowel at the end of the word, the accent stayed put as for the previous form. Many nouns in -ις will show this, and those in -υ/-υς. See Smyth §268.

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

Well, you've clarified these things a lot. Some comments, though.

As for οá½￾δείς vs. οá½￾θείς. I didn't realize that until now. I mean, I wasn't aware of the word's morphology (even knowing its declension), which I suppose to be: οá½￾δὲ εἷς, οá½￾δ'εἷς (no one, none) as in Latin neque/non ullus, nullus.

I've read the reference from Smyth's Grammar and it makes sense now. Well then, so it's a rule.

On a side. I am reading, besides Athenaze stuff, some epigrams and other things from Stobæus' Florilegium which I can find easy and tasty for me -or at least, readable. Do you recommend any other thing? I mean prose or poetry but readable for a beginner, easy in terms of difficulty. I know this is difficult, but I'd accept any suggestion. Anyway, at the end of my current chapter of Athenaze I have an adaptation from Herodotus' Histories so I'm happy. [Edited. Note: I'll probably try with Sophocles' Fabulæ.]

Regards,
Gonzalo

[aloimonon]

Well, since no one has replied, I'll mention two readers (with the caveat that since I am a novice you should check with others):

Although Longus wrote in Attic Greek, he did write in the 2nd century AD (or thereabouts), so his Greek is not 100% standard Attic. This text can be partially viewed on Amazon, and there is a fair amount of help with vocabulary and grammar. Maybe this can help you.
Longus' Daphnis & Chloe
http://www.amazon.com/Longus-Daphnis-Ch ... 165&sr=8-1
I recognize some of Longus in "A Greek Boy At Home".

I have not used this Anabasis reader, but it is on my list, and perhaps is worthy of your attention. It has commentary and vocabulary. Again, Amazon lets you partially view this book, though less than the case of Longus above.
http://www.amazon.com/Xenophons-Anabasi ... 015&sr=8-1

Maybe others can suggest easy readers with vocabulary and commentary- though this is jumping ahead a bit in my case, others could benefit.

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

How are you? Many thanks for your suggestions. I had thought of Xenophon, but specially of his philosophical accounts (see this, for instance, but I don´t know now what I am going to begin to read). As for historical subjects I am reading Herodotus' Histories from a Spanish translation and an adaptation of Herodotus' is given in the Ἀθήναζε exercises part from chapter XI (see page 3 -n.b. I am now up to chapter XIII, reviewing XII).

Well. Now with Daphnis and Chloe. I know the story from a famous and wonderful Spanish translation which I read when I began with Greek (two years ago or so) and I wasn´t able, as it´s evident, to struggle with that Greek novel -in Greek, I mean. I've found an edition of Longus' novel in this site. I have taken a look and I think that I would be able to read it with a lexicon.

On other side. This morning I started my classes at University (in Madrid) and I went to a second-hand book-shop which I know and I bought there amongst other things (mainly Cicero´s Tusculanæ and first volume of Oxford Homer -which I lack) a very cheap edition (3 euro) of Plato's Crito and flicking through it when coming back to home I was able to understand a vast part of it and I was even able to identify an identical phrase from Crito which is used in Ἀθήναζε: [Crito 45b] σοὶ δὲ ὑπάÏ￾χει μὲν Ï„á½° á¼￾μὰ χÏ￾ήματα, ὡς á¼￾γὼ οἶμαι, ἱκανά. It's the same sentence. You cannot figure how much excitement I had when I read that in Crito.

To sum up, I am going to read the Crito and then I will move to Longus' Daphnis & Chloe. I have a bilingual edition of Musæus' Hero and Leander but it may wait, I guess, it's really very difficult -in spite of its extreme beauty (above all at its end when Leander hurled himself off the tower). So, I'll gladly accept suggestions and commentaries for these two works.

Many thanks again,
Gonzalo