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Omission of IPSE vs SUI

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Omission of IPSE vs SUI

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:25 pm

IPSE may be omitted without changing the meaning of the
sentence. SUI cannot without changing the meaning of the
sentence.

Does this mean that:

They themselves will fight to the death (IPSE/Intensive)

can omit 'IPSE' and still mean the same thing?

What would this look like (can somebody translate it for me?)

Also does this mean that:

He doesnt understand himself (SUI/Reflexive)

will mean something else if you take out 'SE'

What would it look like without SE and what would it mean
instead?

Thanks.
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Postby vir litterarum » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:38 am

"Ipse" is merely intensive; it just stresses the fact that it is the subject of the sentence and absolutely no one else performing the action. The reflexive pronoun is necessary because it performs a distinct grammatical role, unlike the intensive pronoun. In your sentence, the reflexive is the direct object and is a necessary component in any sentence which has a transitive verb. "He doesn't understand" means something completely different from "He doesn't understand himself."
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:51 pm

I see what you mean about the reflexive but about the intensive:

In the sentence

They themselves will fight to the death

If you omit IPSE wont it mean:

They will fight to the death

Does this mean the same thing?

Thanks.
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Postby Twpsyn » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:30 pm

The ipse adds emphasis but no 'meaning'.
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Postby calvinist » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:49 pm

think of it this way....

without ipse: They will fight to the death.

with ipse: They will fight to the death.
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:42 pm

This is the following sentence:

IPSA AD MORTI PUGNABUNT

They themselves will fight to the death

IPSA adds emphasis but is not neccessary for the meaning
of the sentence.

What does the sentence look like if you omit IPSA?

Does it look like this, "AD MORTI PUGNABUNT'

Thanks.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:40 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:IPSA AD MORTI PUGNABUNT

They themselves will fight to the death
= Ipsi ad mortem pugnabunt —unless "they" are of neuter gender, possibly robots (nisi sunt generis neutrius, ut roboti).
+
Ipsam ad mortem pugnabunt = "They will fight to the very death (death itself)"
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Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:54 pm

adrianus wrote: = Ipsi ad mortem pugnabunt —unless "they" are of neuter gender (nisi sunt generis neutrius).

What is this an example of? You do not explain.


+
Ipsam ad mortem pugnabunt = "They will fight to the very death (death itself)"

What is this second sentence an example of? You do not explain.



Could you label what each sentence is? I am looking for the original
sentence with 'IPSE' and the sentence without 'IPSE'. You did not
label what the second sentence is. All you did was change the case.
I do not know what you did.

Both of your sentences still have IPSE in them. I am looking for it
with it omitted.
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Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:59 pm

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