1 John 2:19

[BibleShockers]

Would someone be able to comment on the subtleties of grammar in 1 John 2:19, particularly the role of the pluperfect?

Thanks,

[AnAmerican]

1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 2:29 εαν ειδητε οτι δικαιος εστιν γινωσκετε οτι πας ο ποιων την δικαιοσυνην εξ αυτου γεγεννηται

[AnAmerican]

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

19 εξ ημων εξηλθον αλλ ουκ ησαν εξ ημων ει γαÏ￾ ησαν εξ ημων μεμενηκεισαν αν μεθ ημων αλλ ινα φανεÏ￾ωθωσιν οτι ουκ εισιν παντες εξ ημων

I thought i was 2:29

[BibleShockers]

Hi, friend. Thanks for the reply.

I am peer reviewing my reading/interpretation of this verse. To my mind it relates to a situation such as the one in Acts 15:

1 ¶ And certain having come down from Judea, were teaching the brethren—‘If ye be not circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye are not able to be saved;’
2 there having been, therefore, not a little dissension and disputation to Paul and Barnabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of them, to go up unto the apostles and elders to Jerusalem about this question,

These would have come "from James" but, not tracking with James, they were not "of James." We might have the same thing here:

Ga 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

So, in my thinking, the pluperfect pegs the time as being relevant to when these self-appointed missionaries went out and spoke as if they were representing the community. So I get a reading like this:

19 They went originated from us [our community], but they were not [part] of us; for if they had been [part] of us, they would no doubt have been continuing [in line] with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all [representative] of us.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Bill

[modus.irrealis]

So, in my thinking, the pluperfect pegs the time as being relevant to when these self-appointed missionaries went out and spoke as if they were representing the community. So I get a reading like this:

19 They went originated from us [our community], but they were not [part] of us; for if they had been [part] of us, they would no doubt have been continuing [in line] with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all [representative] of us.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the Greek corresponding to the "no doubt", at least in versions I have access to.

The pluperfect in this construction can also represent a perfect, meaning it has present relevance, so it could be (in translationese) "they would be in the state of having continued with us", instead of "they would have been in the state of having continued with us."

Another possible (I think) translation of the final clause is to take ὅτι to mean "because" and to take οá½￾κ in the weaker sense with πάντες (i.e. take "all X are not Y" to imply "some X are Y" rather than "no X are Y"), so that ἀλλ' ἵνα φανεÏ￾ωθῶσιν ὅτι οá½￾κ εἰσὶν πάντες á¼￾ξ ἡμῶν would mean something like "[they left/it happened] so that they would be revealed, because not all are from us."

I also took a look at the Latin Vulgate and it does have utique "surely" (so maybe that's the source for English translations) and translates ὅτι as quoniam which does mean "since" but could also mean "that" so I guess it works either way with the Latin as well.

[BibleShockers]

Bill Ross
http://woundedego.com

[joja]

Hello, Re: the following Scripture:

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have
continued with us: but they went out, that they might be
made manifest that they were not all of us.

I believe the word "us" is referring to those who
believed like Paul, those of like-minded faith,
and not referring to a community.
It's a "spiritual Body" of believers that have come together,
and " entered " into that group of believers by faith,
becoming one of them.
And who can also depart from that "Body" thereby
maanifesting their unbelief.