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Livy Ab Urbe Condita 21.19

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Livy Ab Urbe Condita 21.19

Postby vir litterarum » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:26 am

Haec derecta percontatio ac denuntatio belli magis ex dignitate populi Romani visa est quam de foederum iure verbis disceptare, cum ante, tum maxime Sagunto excisa. Nam si verborum disceptationis res esset, quid foedus Hasdrubalis cum Lutati priore foedere, quod mutatum est, comparandum erat, cum in Lutati foedere diserte additum esset ita id ratum fore si populus censuisset, in Hasdrubalis foedere nec exceptum tale quicquam fuerit et tot annorum silentio ita vivo eo comprobatum sit foedus ut ne mortuo quidem auctore quicquam mutaretur?


"This directed inquiry and proclamation of war seemed more in accordance with the dignity of the Roman people than to debate about the the law of the treaties, both before, and most of all with Saguntum razed. For if the circumstance had been of a debate of words, why should the treaty of Hasdrubal have been compared with the the earlier treaty of Lutatius, which was changed, when in the treaty of Lutatius clearly the
clause had been added: "only if the people had been of the opinion that it would be valid." In the treaty of Hasdrubal neither had any such thing been excepted and in the silence of so many years, with that one being alive, the treaty was confirmed to such an extent that, not even with the originator being dead, was anything changed?"

I had some problems with these sentences, just wanted to verify that my translation was correct.
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Postby thesaurus » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:24 pm

It all looks good to me. And yes, that is a very tricky passage... especially when I don't know what the heck he's talking about.
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Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:03 pm

Salve vir litterarum thesaureque
A minor point, if that's OK:
Addo, tuâ veniâ, ità:
since [+ subjunctive, otherwise when takes active] in the treaty of Lutatius the following [=ita] had clearly been added:
[indirect speech (no speech marks) introduced by pluperfect:] that it would be ratified only if* the people had decreed --[which is what you have only in inverted commas, quod scripsisti sed cum signis sermonis]
[direct speech (speech marks):]"it will be ratified only if* the people decree [literally will have decreed -- action completed in future so future perfect active] = Id [foedus] ratum erit, si populus censuerit."
[*just as you say, ut dicis, or only when for si + future pluperfect active / tempus futurum plusquamperfectum activum]

I'm writing this also as a note to myself, vir litterarum, to remind me of the tenses I see you translate so well. Personally, I find these complications hard.
Sic scribo quidem, ut ego ipse haec res memorem, quae tibi facilùs quàm mihi veniunt. Haec difficilia sunt, meâ sententiâ.
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Postby vir litterarum » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:51 am

"Since" definitely is better than "when" here. What are you taking as the subject of "additum esset"?
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Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:08 pm

Salve vir litterarum,
The subject (of "additum esset") is the clause referred to by "as follows" or "the following" (Latin ità). When you said "the clause" in your translation, I just thought it nicer and more faithful to say "the following". It was only a suggestion.
Quod "ità" spectat subjectivum esse habeo: "id ratum fore si populus censuisset". Attenuatè opinatus sum anglicè "as follows", vel "the following", potiùs quàm "the clause" traductionem tuam amplificare. Tantummodò insusurrabam.
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Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:18 pm

Note that "ità" occurs a second time in this passage but with a slightly different meaning,— of degree, I think, where "ità vivo eo" could be translated as "especially (or 'all the more') with him being alive". Note the word order and adverb both stress the adjective "vivo", I believe.
Nota quoquè ubi in loco "ità" secundò occurrit, ferè autem sensu simile sed, ut credo, hic sensu gradûs, ut "ità vivo eo" anglicè "especially (or 'all the more') with him being alive" verto. Dictionum ordine ac adverbio ità usu, "vivo" adjectivum vim habere credo.
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