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Cicero: De re publica

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Cicero: De re publica

Postby Asterix » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:11 pm

Salvate


I have got a question about some phrases in Cicero's De re publica. In the First Book in Chapte 1

1. (4) His rationibus tam certis tamque inlustribus opponuntur ab iis qui contra disputant primum labores qui sint re publica defendenda sustinendi, leve sane inpedimentum vigilanti et industrio, neque solum in tantis rebus sed etiam in mediocribus vel studiis vel officiis vel vero etiam negotiis contemnendum.

What does here leve sane inpedimentum vigilanti et industrio mean and how does it fit in the overall phrase ? And between leve and sane, isn't here an "et" missing?

2. (5) hinc enim illa et apud Graecos exempla, Miltiadem victorem domitoremque Persarum, nondum sanatis volneribus iis quae corpore adverso in clarissima victoria accepisset, vitam ex hostium telis servatam in civium vinclis profudisse, et Themistoclem patria quam liberavisset pulsum atque proterritum, non in Graeciae portus per se servatos sed in barbariae sinus confugisse quam adflixerat, nec vero levitatis Atheniensium crudelitatisque in amplissimos civis exempla deficiunt. quae nata et frequentata apud illos etiam in gravissumam civitatem nostram dicunt redundasse;

Between "illa et apud Greaecos exempla", what does the "et" doing here?

And Miltiadem victorem .... is this phrase a Accusativus cum Infinitivo?
and iis ... is this a dativus auctoris?

NOw about the phrase "Thermistocelem..." is it right to see an AcI here ?

Thanks
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Re: Cicero: De re publica

Postby thesaurus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:56 am

Salve, Ciceronis lector!

I have got a question about some phrases in Cicero's De re publica. In the First Book in Chapte 1

1. (4) His rationibus tam certis tamque inlustribus opponuntur ab iis qui contra disputant primum labores qui sint re publica defendenda sustinendi, leve sane inpedimentum vigilanti et industrio, neque solum in tantis rebus sed etiam in mediocribus vel studiis vel officiis vel vero etiam negotiis contemnendum.

What does here leve sane inpedimentum vigilanti et industrio mean and how does it fit in the overall phrase ? And between leve and sane, isn't here an "et" missing?


I read the 'leve' clause as an aside elaborating what Cicero thinks of the 'labors which must been undertaken for the defense of the republic.' He says that this first argument (one of the "rationibus," cf. "primum") is "assuredly a light impediment for the vigilant and industrious [person]'. Notice that I'm reading these as adjectives of a person who would be in the position to work for the defense of the Republic (I.e., some loyal, patriotic Roman citizen like, oh, I don't know, CICERO himself), a person who would regard such worthy burdens as light.

I don't think there needs to be an "et," because "sane" is being used adverbally as "certainly" (cf. the synonym "certe").
2. (5) hinc enim illa et apud Graecos exempla, Miltiadem victorem domitoremque Persarum, nondum sanatis volneribus iis quae corpore adverso in clarissima victoria accepisset, vitam ex hostium telis servatam in civium vinclis profudisse, et Themistoclem patria quam liberavisset pulsum atque proterritum, non in Graeciae portus per se servatos sed in barbariae sinus confugisse quam adflixerat, nec vero levitatis Atheniensium crudelitatisque in amplissimos civis exempla deficiunt. quae nata et frequentata apud illos etiam in gravissumam civitatem nostram dicunt redundasse;

Between "illa et apud Greaecos exempla", what does the "et" doing here?

And Miltiadem victorem .... is this phrase a Accusativus cum Infinitivo?
and iis ... is this a dativus auctoris?

NOw about the phrase "Thermistocelem..." is it right to see an AcI here ?


I think the "et" is a bit unnecessarily, but viewed with the sentence that comes before it, Cicero is tacking on a few examples to prove his point. I read this "et" as something like "even"; like, "from here there are even examples among the Greeks..." I don't know what Cicero finds remarkable about the Greeks in this instance, but it might be a case of showing some remarkable proof for his position, like "and the Greek show it too!"

I also read "Miltiadem..." and "Themistoclem" as accusative with infinitive, i.e. indirect speech. Some verb of reporting is assumed to go with the "exempla". I think "iis" would be a further modifier of "volneribus" for effect; "with those wounds not yet healed...". If he wanted agent he would probably do something like "ab iis" like in your first sentence.

Good luck! I hope I was of help, and let me know if you have any more questions.
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Postby thesaurus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:30 pm

On further reflection, maybe you look at "illa" and "apud" as adjectival in some way. It doesn't really translate well into English, but it would be something like "Those are examples and they are among the Greeks." In English I would say "And there are even those examples that are among the Greeks." This sort of balances out in the end with the "nec vero..." phrase, in which Cicero, in true Roman fashion, points out what he sees as their many native examples of moral failing.

And to clarify the accusative with infinitive, here is a way you could reword these sentences to see the connection more straightforwardly:

illa exempla [monstrant]:
1) Miltiadem victorem domitoremque Persarum (nondum sanatis volneribus iis quae [vulnera], corpore adverso, in clarissima victoria accepisset) profudisse vitam (servatam ex telis hostium) in vinclis civium;
2) Themistoclem pulsum atque proterritum [ab] patria (quam liberavisset), confugisse (non in portus Graeciae--[portus] per se servatos) in sinus barbariae (quam [barbariam] adflixerat).
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Thanks so far

Postby Asterix » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:29 pm

Thanks

I try to use this information.

thanks
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new question

Postby Asterix » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:11 am

Salvate Genii lectoris Ciceronis!

I have got a new question that occurred in my daily three verse translation of Cicero:

In the same chapter Verse 7

"salvam esse consulato abiens in contione populo Romano idem iurante iurassem, facile iniuriarum omnium compensarem curam et molestiam."

What is the main verb ? Iurassem ?

and the term "salvam esse" what is the (feminine) reference? I don't find any in this sentence.

"idem iurante" Is this a colloquial expression?

The phrase "facile ... molestiam" What is here the main verb?

Thank you
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Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:25 pm

Salve Asterix
Ut credo,
in translating wrote:Retiring from the consulship, in [my] speech to the Roman people I had also sworn that I could safely say, that I would consider it well worth the trouble and annoyance of all the abuse.

translating literally wrote:Retiring from the consulship ("consulatu"), in [my] speech to the Roman people also [idem or item] I had sworn that it would be a safe matter ["rem" understood], that I would easily offset the trouble and annoyance of all the abuses.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:55 pm

adrianus, you seem to have missed iurante and I would take idem with that to get something like "to the Roman people, who also swear."

Is this a complete sentence, though? The version I found at www.thelatinlibrary.com seems to have some kind of gap before it, and I wonder about the force of the subjunctives (iurassem, compensarum) here. Also could the feminine salvam refer not only to some general res but specifically to the res publica?
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Postby adrianus » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:05 pm

I did. It isn't. It could, modus.irrealis. Good idea.
Omisi. Eget. Referat. Bonum consilium, modus.irrealis.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:08 am

I realize now that (as I usually do) I mixed up the usage of idem -- I think I was wrong to take it in the sense of "also" as adrianus did -- in his case idem would be masculine nominative agreeing with the subject of iurassem, but I think that if I were to take it that way with iurante, then it would have to be the ablative eodem, right? So i would have to take it as neuter accusative, so something like "swearing the same thing." (Then again, maybe there's not that much difference between the two but I'd rather be as literal as possible.)
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Postby adrianus » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:48 pm

I read "item" for "idem" (as you can do sometimes), which is an indeclinable adverb, modus.irrealis. Still it may have been wrong to do so.
"Item" pro "idem" legi (ut nonnunquam licet), quod adverbium est, et eò indeclinabile. Fortassè sic faciendo erravi quidem.
Last edited by adrianus on Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The next obstacle

Postby Asterix » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:05 pm

Thanks,

I missed the [res] "salvas esse" although I've got a good commentary about Cicero's writings in German language. It should have been mentioned in my commentary.

Okay, the translation tour among Cicero's words go on, but my next obstacle is the following one:

De re publica, Chapter 1, Verse 8:

(8) neque enim hac nos patria lege genuit aut educavit, ut nulla quasi alimenta exspectaret a nobis, ac tantummodo nostris ipsa commodis serviens tutum perfugium otio nostro suppeditaret et tranquillum ad quietem locum, sed ut plurimas et maximas nostri animi ingenii consilii partis ipsa sibi ad utilitatem suam pigneraretur, tantumque nobis in nostrum privatum usum quantum ipsi superesse posset remitteret.


I got the translation of the verse so far but I got a problem with "ut plurimas et maximas nostri animi ingenii consilii partis ipsa sibi ad utilitatem suam pigneraretur" because I don't know to what is "plurimas et maximas" refering to ? And is "nostri animi ... " a Genetiv in that case or a plural? And what is about ipsa, sibi and suam ? To what is it referring to? Or can this be omitted in a translation?

If someone could provide me a little help or change the phrase to be understood easier, I would be grateful for it.
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Re: The next obstacle

Postby thesaurus » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:45 pm

De re publica, Chapter 1, Verse 8:

neque enim hac nos patria lege genuit aut educavit, ut nulla quasi alimenta exspectaret a nobis, ac tantummodo nostris ipsa commodis serviens tutum perfugium otio nostro suppeditaret et tranquillum ad quietem locum, sed ut plurimas et maximas nostri animi ingenii consilii partis ipsa sibi ad utilitatem suam pigneraretur, tantumque nobis in nostrum privatum usum quantum ipsi superesse posset remitteret.


My version:
For the nation did not create or raise us with this law, that it would expect almost no sustenance from us, but, only catering to our needs, would furnish safe refuge for our leisure and a pleasant place for rest; rather, [it raised us] so that it could pledge the most and greatest part of our souls, minds, and plans for itself [and] for its own utility, and it would return to our private use as much [leisure/ability] as it would be able to have left over [for itself]. [i.e. "as much as it has leftover after its own needs."]


Asterix wrote:I got the translation of the verse so far but I got a problem with "ut plurimas et maximas nostri animi ingenii consilii partis ipsa sibi ad utilitatem suam pigneraretur" because I don't know to what is "plurimas et maximas" refering to ? And is "nostri animi ... " a Genetiv in that case or a plural? And what is about ipsa, sibi and suam ? To what is it referring to? Or can this be omitted in a translation?

If someone could provide me a little help or change the phrase to be understood easier, I would be grateful for it.


Sometimes Cicero likes to make a list of words and for whatever reason editors don't stick in commas. I think animi, ingenii and consilii are partitive genitives, in the sense of "a lot (of something)". The 'nostri' is a genitive matching with each noun. The 'partis' is a little tricky, but I think it is there to highlight that this is a partitive genitive; literally "the greatest of the part of our souls..." or in better English, "The greatest part of our soul..." Partitive genitives are common with words like "magis". E.g., you'd say "magis lucis" to say "more light".

Ipsa is just refering back to Patria, the subject. Sibi is a dative of benefit, which is just a silly way of saying a regular dative, because the patria is guaranteeing our best elements "for itself" as opposed to for our own leisure (otio nostro). Suam is simply modifying "utilitatem," 'it's own utility/use'. But in translating (in english anyways), you could probably leave out ipsa, and sort of merge ipsi and suam, because the basic idea is that the utility becomes "it's own". You'll notice that I had to insert an "and" in my translation for the sake of literalness.

Oh, and I'd be interested in hearing more about your verse Cicero project, although unless the translation is English I probably won't be able to read it :(
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The tricky Cicero

Postby Asterix » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:51 am

No, no, no, I study your answers and translate from Latin to German.

I'm looking forward to ask here some things that occur among Cicero's lines.
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