Latin-Latin Dictionary?

[Discipulus Tristis]

Salvete nepotes Romuli,

I have an interesting anecdote for you.

I'm currently working through Lingua Latina Pars II, and yesterday I was telling a friend of mine how amazing it is to be forced to think in Latin for the hour or so per day I spend reading the book. My friend was intrigued by the Ørberg method, as he is a student of both Sanskrit and Classical Tibetan. He told me an interesting story about a Tibetan professor of his who attributed much of his own success in the language to the habitual use of a Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary. The dictionary essentially functions the same way as Ørberg's glosses: each word is defined by a simple phrase or, for more difficult words, by a group of more familiar synonyms.

I think that a Latin-Latin dictionary would be an incredibly powerful resource, especially if used in conjunction with the Lingua Latina books. I did a few Google and Amazon searches, but I wasn't able to discover if such a resource exists. Has anyone here ever seen or used something like a Latin-Latin dictionary?

[Gonzalo]

Hi,

I recommended the next one in other occasion.
http://www.grexlat.com/biblio/wagner/index.html

Regards,
Gonzalo

[thesaurus]

I definitely saw a couple Latin-Latin dictionaries (and a bunch of other cool ones) yesterday while poking around in a theological library. I'll report back later when I've written down their info. No telling if Google will have them though.

On that note, it's interesting that a lot of foreign language dictionaries before the 20th century tended to have just Latin translations. Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Celtic, etc. to Latin. I imagine these have all fallen completely out of use even if they are among the best available in their specific language. What was once done to make something universally readable has now rendered it unintelligible to most. Personally, I look forward to using an Ancient Greek-Latin dictionary to keep up with both of my studies.

[bedwere]

There is also the Gradus ad Parnassum. One of these days I'm going to upload either the Wagner or the Gradus onto Lulu and print a dictionary for me.

[thesaurus]

So besides Wagner's Lexicon Latinum, my library has Forcellini's Lexicon Totius Latinitatis and the published volumes of the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae. Considering that these latter are multiple large volumes and don't seem to be on Google books, you'd best stick with Wagner for your immediate lexical needs.

The Lexicon Mediae et Infimae Latinitatis by Charles Ducagne is available online and in Latin (along with some French), but it only covers medieval Latin.

[Gonzalo]

There is also the Gradus ad Parnassum. One of these days I'm going to upload either the Wagner or the Gradus onto Lulu and print a dictionary for me.

I am about to buy this Thesaurus (for 40 €). I am not familiar to Thesaurus nor Latin-Latin dictionaries but when I'm writing Latin and I don't find the exact word or a synonym, it could be useful: http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/BookDe ... D0%26y%3D0
By the way, is Lulu expensive?

[bedwere]

I am about to buy this Thesaurus (for 40 €). I am not familiar to Thesaurus nor Latin-Latin dictionaries but when I'm writing Latin and I don't find the exact word or a synonym, it could be useful: http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/BookDe ... D0%26y%3D0
By the way, is Lulu expensive?

A 500-page, A5, black and white, perfect-bound, paperback costs €11.65 per unit.

[cb]

hi, i agree totally about monoling dictionaries.

i finally found and bought a (massive) copy of stephanus' thesaurus linguae latinae recently: here are some pics if anyone else likes these kinds of books (remove spaces from the links, textkit is still blocking links to my site):

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict1 . jpg

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict2 . jpg

the caesar entry as an e.g.:
www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict3 . jpg

cheers

[Gonzalo]

I am about to buy this Thesaurus (for 40 €). I am not familiar to Thesaurus nor Latin-Latin dictionaries but when I'm writing Latin and I don't find the exact word or a synonym, it could be useful: http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/BookDe ... D0%26y%3D0
By the way, is Lulu expensive?

A 500-page, A5, black and white, perfect-bound, paperback costs €11.65 per unit.

Thanks for the info. So, it's not very expensive.

[cb]

hi, wagner isn't monolingual. it gives french resemblances of latin words, rather than defining latin words in latin (i have had long discussions with classics bookstore owners here about why i think this is necessary: in reading an article on one word you are really learning multiple words by seeing how they go together; bilingual classics dictionaries just show you that X modern word or phrase resembles more or less Y ancient word).

wagner also gives latin synonyms, but just lists them, which isn't v useful because it doesn't explain the different significations of these. far better i think to read books specifically dedicated to latin synonyms or greek synonyms, which take a couple of synonyms at a time and separate out their differences (either differences of meaning or the different contexts in which they are used): if you search archive dot org or google for latin synonyms or greek synonyms you will find some.

cheers

[thesaurus]

hi, i agree totally about monoling dictionaries.

i finally found and bought a (massive) copy of stephanus' thesaurus linguae latinae recently: here are some pics if anyone else likes these kinds of books (remove spaces from the links, textkit is still blocking links to my site):

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict1 . jpg

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict2 . jpg

the caesar entry as an e.g.:
www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / latindict3 . jpg

cheers

Damn CB, that is one fine Latinate acquisition, if I may say so. May I ask how much that cost and where you got it from?

[cb]

hi, i bought the dict at a rare book store on the left bank in paris, took a while to track it down, v $$.

just to add to what i was saying above, latin comp books also sometimes explain the nuances of synonyms, e.g. if you check out william smith's principia series, vol iv on latin prose comp (it's online), he explains basic differences in synonyms throughout the exercises.

cheers

[Lucus Eques]

Where is that Principia series? I'm quite interested.

[cb]

hi, see edonnelly's list under "smith, w":

http://new.textkit.com/node/35

the initia series for grk by the same author is also really good, for these see edonnellý's corresponding grk list.

cheers

[cantator]

The Lexicon Mediae et Infimae Latinitatis by Charles Ducagne is available online...

A link, please ? I checked Google and Google Books, the SULAIR site has some problem finding its own listed pages, and I couldn't find it anywhere else.

[thesaurus]

Does anyone know of any online version of Stephanus' Thesaurus Linguae Latinae? From what I've seen it should be the best Laitn-Latin dictionary in existence, but doesn't seem to be anywhere outside of a few, rare libraries.

The Lexicon Mediae et Infimae Latinitatis by Charles Ducagne is available online...

A link, please ? I checked Google and Google Books, the SULAIR site has some problem finding its own listed pages, and I couldn't find it anywhere else.

There are some scattered volumes on Google books (maybe all?) but here is a downloadable site of all seven:
[url]http://standish.stanford.edu/bin/search/advanced/process?clauseMapped(catKey)=612209&sort=title
[/url]

My mistake, it is the "Glossarium mediae et infimae latinitatis". And the definitions do seem to be entirely in Laitn.

[Gonzalo]

I hope it helps:
http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/Consult/in ... mfiche=237 (consulter l'ouvrage pour télécharger)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k930178

[cb]

hi,

in fact stephanus produced 3 editions of his thesaurus linguae latinae, but not all are latin-latin: of these, the best edition (which is fully latin-latin) is his 3rd edition, 1543.

the only full edition of his thesaurus linguae latinae online i have found is his 1st edition, 1531 (1st link of gonzalo above) which is not monolingual; it defines lots of words in french.

the 2nd half only of his second edition (1536) is also online (2nd link of gonzalo above). unfortunately i haven't found the 1st half of this online anywhere.

if anyone wants to read a short history of latin-latin dictionaries up to and including that of stephanus, see greswell's book online here, in particular pages 194-211:

http://www.archive.org/details/ofearlyp ... 01gresrich

greswell states (pg 201) that in his opinion the best edition overall of the latin-latin dict is the london edition of the 1700s, which includes corrections, expansions etc. to the 1543 edition of stephanus (see pg 201 of the book linked above).

cheers

[cantator]

... here is a downloadable site of all seven:

http://standish.stanford.edu/bin/search ... ped(catKey)=612209&sort=title


My mistake, it is the "Glossarium mediae et infimae latinitatis". And the definitions do seem to be entirely in Laitn.

Thank you ! Alas, the scanner often held the book's center too lightly, the folding obscures some text, but it's still a great resource. Many thanks for the link.

[KramerKram]

I'm doing some reconnaissance at my local library for Stephanus (they have it). Would a photographed edition (high quality) be of any interest to anyone, because I have no place to store it online? Would I be able to Lulu one?

Sidenote: I haven't decided to do it yet... Just checking out the books.

[KramerKram]

Found the four books at the library, and they are HUGE. I've never done anything like this before, so anyone have any recommendations so as to get the highest quality?

Also, I took 3 sample pictures at the library. Anyone have a host for ~10mb of pictures?

[adrianus]

Salve KramerKram

Use a tripod.
Use a Bembo trekker tripod to come in over the books, if you can. (Obviously a copy stand is nice but I have a Kaiser Pro copy stand and actually prefer to use the Bembo.)
Make sure the plane of the camera body is parallel to the book or table surface (using a camera spirit level usually, or else by eyeballing it)
Try to avoid shadows cast on the page by the tripod or by anything else (including you).
Use diffuse or even lighting, to prevent uneven distribution of light across the pages.
Make sure the lighting of the pages is good to ensure best detail contrast. So use some reading lamps if you haven't got shadow boxes, but avoid lighting hotspots by positioning the lamps too close to the pages.
JPEG capture will be fine, as long as you keep it fine or good and not low resolution.
Best to photo double spreads, rather than single pages, for speed, and this requires you checking the detail capture. I've captured double-spreads of A3 dimensions and held resolution on 6-point fonts with a 5 megapixel camera in the past, as long as you are follow these guidelines, but obviously higher megapixel capture is better, although for the Stephanus books 7 to 10 megapixel capture is better.
Use a remote trigger on the camera to prevent shake.
With the camera relatively close to the book, don't underestimate the depth of field required to ensure all points of the page surface are in focus (pages bow).
Keep a high resolution to ensure accurate capture of small point sizes (fonts).
Follow a system of visually and mentally noting each page number to ensure you don't skip a page in a long run (you needn't write it down of course, just keep an eye out for skipping pages, which can often happen).
Remember to photograph the outer covers and spine (it's nice to do so) and even the seemingly unimportant pages (no pages are unimportant).
Try not to damage the spine keeping the book flat, and increase depth of field if you need to, in preference to forcing the book flat.
You need to devise your own method of ensuring pages stay flat when you photograph them and if you suspect they may have moved during the shot, take a second shot —much harder to return to this if you hand the books back to the library and then discover some pages have motion blurring.
Photograph at a fine or high resolution and as high as possible colour depth. DO NOT use a low image-capture resolution or or low colour depth (--bit resolution should be at least 8 bit and 24-bit is great). You can always sample down using batch processing in PhotoShop if the total file size is much too high.
If the book has much detail, photograph in colour in preference to grayscale, even if your book is B&W. You will hold a broader tonal range for illustration detail and, importantly, for very fine print (plus it's a more faithful image, anyway).
And I would certainly love to be able to get the copy.

In linguam latinam has res non verto. Nimium est. Me excusas.

[thesaurus]

I'm doing some reconnaissance at my local library for Stephanus (they have it). Would a photographed edition (high quality) be of any interest to anyone, because I have no place to store it online? Would I be able to Lulu one?

Sidenote: I haven't decided to do it yet... Just checking out the books.

I would sing your praises to the highest heavens for all eternity if you did this. I've been actively investigating this myself since this thread surfaced, emailing various Jesuits to gain secret permissions etc., but so far nequiquam! I have big dreams for this and similar dictionaries. Please do continue and let us know how it's going. I can't offer technical help, but Adrianus seems to have your back on that one.

Sempiternas laudes tuas cantabo si hoc onus sustuleris. Ego ipse hanc rem diligenter scrutabam (Jesuitas appellans ut secreta obscura obtineam) sed iam nequiquam. Spe magna huic rei impendo...

[KramerKram]

Salve KramerKram

Use a tripod.
Use a Bembo trekker tripod to come in over the books, if you can. (Obviously a copy stand is nice but I have a Kaiser Pro copy stand and actually prefer to use the Bembo.)
Make sure the plane of the camera body is parallel to the book or table surface (using a camera spirit level usually, or else by eyeballing it)
Try to avoid shadows cast on the page by the tripod or by anything else (including you).
Use diffuse or even lighting, to prevent uneven distribution of light across the pages.
Make sure the lighting of the pages is good to ensure best detail contrast. So use some reading lamps if you haven't got shadow boxes, but avoid lighting hotspots by positioning the lamps too close to the pages.
JPEG capture will be fine, as long as you keep it fine or good and not low resolution.
Best to photo double spreads, rather than single pages, for speed, and this requires you checking the detail capture. I've captured double-spreads of A3 dimensions and held resolution on 6-point fonts with a 5 megapixel camera in the past, as long as you are follow these guidelines, but obviously higher megapixel capture is better, although for the Stephanus books 7 to 10 megapixel capture is better.
Use a remote trigger on the camera to prevent shake.
With the camera relatively close to the book, don't underestimate the depth of field required to ensure all points of the page surface are in focus (pages bow).
Keep a high resolution to ensure accurate capture of small point sizes (fonts).
Follow a system of visually and mentally noting each page number to ensure you don't skip a page in a long run (you needn't write it down of course, just keep an eye out for skipping pages, which can often happen).
Remember to photograph the outer covers and spine (it's nice to do so) and even the seemingly unimportant pages (no pages are unimportant).
Try not to damage the spine keeping the book flat, and increase depth of field if you need to, in preference to forcing the book flat.
You need to devise your own method of ensuring pages stay flat when you photograph them and if you suspect they may have moved during the shot, take a second shot —much harder to return to this if you hand the books back to the library and then discover some pages have motion blurring.
Photograph at a fine or high resolution and as high as possible colour depth. DO NOT use a low image-capture resolution or or low colour depth (--bit resolution should be at least 8 bit and 24-bit is great). You can always sample down using batch processing in PhotoShop if the total file size is much too high.
If the book has much detail, photograph in colour in preference to grayscale, even if your book is B&W. You will hold a broader tonal range for illustration detail and, importantly, for very fine print (plus it's a more faithful image, anyway).
And I would certainly love to be able to get the copy.

In linguam latinam has res non verto. Nimium est. Me excusas.

Hmm... This may be a bigger task than I am able to take on; I don't have any money to buy equipment. I have a regular tripod and an 8 megapixel camera. Any recommendations for using that sort of equipment and maybe a roll of duct tape?

For now I will continue looking into it...

[adrianus]

Hmm... This may be a bigger task than I am able to take on

Not at all. My recommendations are how to get maximum quality. Be happy with any quality at all, and learn from your mistakes.
Minimè, KramerKram. Commendationibus meis, problemates omnia praecipere conor. Quod potes attingere conare, et erroribus disce.

[thesaurus]

Perhaps take some pictures to the best of your ability, post them there, and then discuss improvements?

Fortasse librum, ut vales, photographes deinde imagines hic pone ut nos eas videamus atque aestimemus.

[metrodorus]

http://fama2.us.es/fde/ocr/2008/lexiconManuale.pdf
definitions given in both in latin & french

[metrodorus]

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/hofmann.html

and

http://bibliotecaforal.bizkaia.net/sear ... ,005994,-1


geographical lexicon manuale
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7zrjJpuL7ZQC

et

http://www.rostra.dk/latin/abc.html

Here is a list I found :
Allio, Joannes Franciscus Corradinus de, Lexicon Latinum-criticum..., Venedig 1742
Barzinius, Gasparinus, Vocabularium breve Gasparini Pergomensis, (Venedig 1523) Venedig 1563
Bencini, Andrea, Dizionario del latino contemporaneo, 1997
Bernhold, Johann G., Zu gründlicher und vernünftiger Erlernung der lateinischen Sprache eingerichtetes Wörterbuch, Onolzbach 1757
Curio, Coelius Secundus, Thesaurus linguae Latinae, s[eu] forum Romanum, Basel 1576
Heinrich, A., Deutsch - lateinisches Wörterbuch als Ergänzungstheil zu J.J.G. Schellers lateinischen Wörterbuche in etymologischer Ordnung, Teschen 1826 (Prochaska)
Lindsay, Wallace Martin, Glossaria Latina, 3 Bde. Paris 1925
Löwe, G., Prodromus corporis glossariorum Latinorum, Leipzig 1876
Lucius, Ludwig, Aerarium sive thesaurus linguae Latinae, Frankfurt 1613
Montanus, Jacobus, Elegantiae vocabulorum ex L. Valla, Frontone, Capro, Agraetio, Nonioque in ordinem alphabeticum redactae, Köln 1525
Pareus, Johannes Philippus, Lexicon criticum sive thesaurus Latinae linguae, Nürnberg 1645
Pareus, Johannes Philippus, Lexici critici manrissa, Nürnberg 1646 (Supplement)
Reuchlin, Johannes, Vocabularius breviloquus, Basel 1475, 25. Aufl. 1504
Riccius, Bartholomäus, Apparatus Latinae locutionis, Venedig 1553
Schoensleder, Wolfgang, Apparatus eloquentiae, Augsburg 1630
Trebelius, Theodor, Latinae linguae promptuarium, Paris 1545

[adrianus]

geographical lexicon manuale
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7zrjJpuL7ZQC

The replication of this book illustrates, KramerKram, all the problems to avoid.
Imagines huius libri, KramerKram, omnia vitia quae evitanda sunt ostendunt.

This one is well done, as you see for yourself of course.
Imagines huius libri bellae sunt, ut clarum est:
http://fama2.us.es/fde/ocr/2008/lexiconManuale.pdf

[Alex Sheremet]

It's not precisely what you're looking for, but consider "D?oderlein's Handbook of Latin synonymes" -- it has a lot of English, but the synonyms, obviously, are in Latin, and the compiler offers notes on usage, e.g., "abesse denotes absence as a local relation, 'to be away' from a place; but deesse denotes an absence by which a thing is rendered incomplete, and means 'to fail,' 'to be waiting,' in opp. to esse and superesse," with quotations from Classical authors.

I ordered a copy last night.. will start reading through it soon.

[metrodorus]

Corpus glossariorum Latinorum a Gustavo Loewe

This is google books as full view, but even with privoxy I cannot download it in the UK.

[bedwere]

Corpus glossariorum Latinorum a Gustavo Loewe

This is google books as full view, but even with privoxy I cannot download it in the UK.

No problem from the U.S.
Corpus glossariorum latinorum (pars prior)
Corpus glossariorum latinorum (pars posterior)

[ingrid70]

But that's the problem Bedwere: a lot of books that are downloadable in the US are not so in the rest of the world...Sometimes proxies help, but in this case, I've got the same problem as Metrodorus has: I can see it is full view, but the proxies I usually use (proxify and youhide) can't download it. Too big, I suppose?

Ingrid (in the Netherlands)

[thesaurus]

I have acquired on loan the four volumes of Stephanus's Thesaurus Linguae Latinae. This is the London edition of 1740, and all the definitions etc are completely in Latin.

I am currently looking into making digital scans of these volumes as best I can. Hopefully I'll be able to get them all done and up online.

I'm also envisioning creating an online latin-latin dictionary, where you can search for words and bring up their Latin definitions, rather than just single word translations in another language. I think a searchable program like this could really help people develop to thinking in the language and not translating between English etc. It could possibly include other Latin-Latin definitions to incorporate the other dictionaries which have made this effort. Does anyone know the best way to go about developing this? Obviously OCR text is important, followed somehow by dividing them into their entries...

[metrodorus]

I odered a publicdomainreprints copy of google's scan of the Gradus ad Parnassum - this is an all-latin thesaurus - I have found it really useful when writing. It is not quite a dictionary, but it helps.
If we could locate Comenius' Latino-Latinum students' dictionary dictionary, we will find much of the work has already been done - no point reinventing the wheel.

Evan.

[adrianus]

Care Thesaure salve

Your proposal to publish Stephanus's Thesaurus online is in itself a lot of work and not to be underestimated, and what you learn by it will inform your later ambitious choices. The trick is to do that thing first and then reassess your ambitions.

I have taken a different tangled path. I've been doing this (compiling a Latin-Latin dictionary for an Expert System) on and off for the last three years, the first year of which involved checking and editing every entry in Whitaker's Words and adding omissions from L&S & OLD. Still many words are wrong or are missing due to my carelessness or choices. I then wrote software to strip and classify existing and OCR'd wordlists + Latin-English and Latin-Latin works from Microsoft's Archive, Google Books and Early English Books Online and I'm up to 60000 words. That's what I call a bucket approach. My needle and thread approach involves going through those entries and adjusting them to allow them to be used in an Expert System. It has become more a hobby (or a folly?) than a project, because it will take many years to complete this, and, if I change the design significantly, it will mean many more years than I have planned for, because much work will have to be redone. It would be wiser to work cooperatively, but cooperation requires a clear plan, clear goals, reliability and committment (and the avoidance of bluffers).

Quod proponis, Thesaure, Thesaurum Stephani interrete emittere, multum laborem requiret, ut non parvum aestimare debes, et quod disces consilios tuos ducet. Ars est primò illam rem facere et dein vias quae se ostendent inspicere.

Ego ipse viam contortam optavi. Id est, inter alia, hos proximos tres annos thesaurum Latino Latinum in systemate perito ad usendum facio. Primum annum, omne verbum apud Whitaker verificabam corrigebamque, et quae apud L&S et OLD è Whitaker defuerunt addidi. Sinè dubito, meâ incuriâ arbitriisque multa verba quae carent. Programmates tunc scripsi ad lexicorum adnumeradum coniciendumque. Eâ ratione quam "hamae" modum voco, nunc sexaginta millia verborum habeo. Malè autem adnumerati plures sunt, quod ità alium corrigendi modum, "acûs aciaeque", requirit, si programma in systemate perito successurum erit. Nunc pensum requietem (vel stultitiam?) fit, quià necesse sunt multi anni ut finiturum erit. Setiùs, si consilium significante modo mutaturum sit, spatium pensi extendat, ut consequia. Sapientius cooperativè laborare, sed requirat talis conviventia et consilium clarum finesque speciales atque socios qui studiosi fretique (non fraudulenti) debeant.

[adrianus]

I forgot to say that Vicipaedia has the best approach, in my opinion, to compiling a Latin-Latin dictionary (not quite there yet, however, in terms of design and usability) with its Victionarium at http://la.wiktionary.org/wiki/Victionarium:Lingua_Latina

Apud Vicipaediam, dictionarium Latino Latinum indicare oblitus sum, Victionarium nomine, cuius ratio fabricae laudanda est, ut puto, etsi perfectio copiarum formaeque egeat.

[adrianus]

Roberti Stephani lexicographorum principis thesaurus linguæ latinæ : in IV. tomos divisus (Volume 1,2,3,4) - Estienne, Robert, 1503?-1559

Eccum, KramerKram Thesaure et alii: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query ... pe%3Atexts

[jorgegonza]

I found this one in google books. It's quite small (100 p) but is fully latin-latin and very simple. http://books.google.com.pe/books?id=zDVFAAAAcAAJ