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Salveo missing it's last two principle parts?

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Salveo missing it's last two principle parts?

Postby Ireclan » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:14 am

Hey, I was wondering why Salveo has only two principle parts. I looked it up, and a web page I looked at said it was "defective", but didn't explain further. So, what's the deal? I find it rather strange that those last two parts just wouldn't be used.....
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Postby benissimus » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:58 am

The verb is only used in the imperative (as a greeting/farewell) and infinitive (usually in the construction saluere iubere), rendering any other principal parts unnecessary. The exceptionally rare finite forms are dubbed "nonce-uses" by the OLD.
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Postby Ireclan » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:38 pm

Oh...So any other uses are just....Not used? How odd....But what about the fist, second, and third person singular and plural present indicative (the o/s/t/mus/tis/nt endings)? If those aren't used, why even give the first principal part? I can see why they give the second (the infinitive), because you'd need to know that, but why give Salveo if Salveo isn't in fact used?
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Postby timeodanaos » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:39 pm

Because all verbs are listed by their first person singular, I guess.

Just like the verb 'for, -, fatum, fari' - it isn't used in the first person singular at all. But if you didn't know that and just stumbled upon the infinitive, you would first look for its first person singular, just as if you were looking up a normal verb like proficiscor.
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Postby Ireclan » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:57 pm

Oh, OK! It's just convention, then. Thanks...
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Postby Cato » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:15 am

benissimus wrote:The verb is only used in the imperative (as a greeting/farewell) and infinitive (usually in the construction saluere iubere), rendering any other principal parts unnecessary. The exceptionally rare finite forms are dubbed "nonce-uses" by the OLD.

A note on "nonce-uses"; a professor I had in college had an interesting (if undocumented) origin for this curious term.

He said word forms which appeared only once in all extant classical literature were dubbed "an once use" by British classicists, who carefully used the article "an" before all words beginning with a vowel. Obviously this is awkward to pronounce, so when printed it was pronounced as if it were written "a nonce use".

I won't vouch for the veracity of this, but it's a neat story. Which means, alas, it's probably untrue...
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Postby Rufus Gulielmus » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:50 am

To contribute to the discussion of 'nonce-use'...

I found this on one of my frequent internet haunts, www.etymonline.com:

nonce

abstracted from phrase for þe naness (c.1200) "for a special occasion, for a particular purpose," itself a misdivision of for þan anes "for the one," in reference to a particular occasion or purpose, the þan being from O.E. dative def. article þam. The phrase used from c.1315 as an empty filler in metrical composition. Hence, nonce-word "word coined for a special occasion," 1954.


Though I must say, I do like the story of the old professor.

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Postby timeodanaos » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:43 am

Cato wrote:He said word forms which appeared only once in all extant classical literature were dubbed "an once use" by British classicists
Anyway, words only found in one place are usually called ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, -α 'once read' (and in the plural)
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salveo

Postby metrodorus » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:10 pm

Salveo, of course is used, for example in reply to a query about one's health, once can say
Salve?
Answer: "non salveo" I am not well.
Metrodorus.
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Re: salveo

Postby benissimus » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:38 pm

metrodorus wrote:Salveo, of course is used, for example in reply to a query about one's health, once can say
Salve?
Answer: "non salveo" I am not well.

I only know of one instance in Classical writing where the form salueo is used, and that was in a play. Unless there are other instances of which I am unaware, it seems a little over-zealous to advise such uses, unless in a colloquial atmosphere.
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Plautus

Postby metrodorus » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:06 pm

Salveo occurs in Plautus.
Simply becuase an occurrences of a Latin phrase only occurs once in the tiny corpus of Classical Latin that has been handed down to us, does not mean it wasn't an everyday expression.
If we were to remove every usage that is only attested to once, we would lose rather a large chunk of Classical Latin.
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Re: Plautus

Postby benissimus » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:38 pm

metrodorus wrote:Salveo occurs in Plautus.
Simply becuase an occurrences of a Latin phrase only occurs once in the tiny corpus of Classical Latin that has been handed down to us, does not mean it wasn't an everyday expression.
If we were to remove every usage that is only attested to once, we would lose rather a large chunk of Classical Latin.

metrodore, I think we are for the most part in agreement. I was indeed referring to the instance in Plautus, which is a colloquial context. I have no doubt that other finite forms of salueo occurred in conversation, either as a matter of course, or for use in puns (&c.). I was merely saying that the lack of such forms in prose is a sign that Classical authors, whom most of us would try to emulate, avoided it in their publicized works. I agree that it would be silly not to include those forms which don't occur (or which occur once) into our vocabulary in many cases, but for such a common word to not occur in a particular form I feel is more than coincidence.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu May 01, 2008 6:07 am

Finite forms of "salvere" are in fact used in conversation, as is "valere."

This is of course the hodiern spoken and written Classical Latin, based on what is handed down to us. "Salvere" lacks other principle parts — use the adjective "salvus" for these tenses.
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Defective in the daughter languages

Postby joels341 » Thu May 15, 2008 9:53 pm

Hi,

I just thought you may like to know of some examples of "defective" verbs in the Latin's daughter languages as well as English.

I English, one example that comes to mind is the verb "to beware". You cannot say "I bewared of the dog". However you use the infinitive and imperative forms.

In French, a classic example is the verb "falloir" meaning "to be necessary" (from Latin 'fallere'). It is used in constructions like "Il faut que j'y aille" which mean "I have to go" or literally "It is necessary that I go". "Falloir" only has conjugations in the third person (used with "il" meaning "it" in these contexts), and there are no imperative forms.
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