Textkit Logo

future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:29 am

With the exception of 1st person singular, how do you know whether a verb is future perfect or perfect subjunctive?<br /><br />Noxam ab incolis pepulerimus<br /><br />I'm not sure whether "pepulerimus" is 1st person plural future perfect or 1st person plural perfect subjunctive.<br /><br />Should this sentence translate to<br /><br /> We shall have driven off harm from the inhabitants. (fut perf)<br /><br />or<br /><br /> We drove off harm from the inhabitants. (perf subj ??? )<br /><br />I can't quite grasp what the Latin to English translation is for perfect subjunctive. :(<br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:45 am

It is difficult to differentiate between the two. The only difference in form is that the perfect subjunctive has a long "I" and the future perfect usually does not (but can). The sentence you have is probably a future perfect, because it is just highly unlikely that they would say such a thing without some sort of subjunctive clause. It just doesn't make as much sense to have a past jussive (hortatory/volitive).<br /><br />*and no, you cannot translate a perfect subjunctive into English unless it has a valid context.
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:55 am

By the way, I'm amazed at how far you are since you last posted about your work!
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:12 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6514 date=1064295915]<br />The only difference in form is that the perfect subjunctive has a long "I" and the future perfect usually does not (but can). [/quote]<br /><br />Really? That difference would really help beginners like me.<br /><br />Hmmm... there's something wrong with my book then because it doesn't show the long "I" for either the perfect subjunctive or the future perfect. :-\ Are they trying to throw me a curve ball?<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:16 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6518 date=1064296519]<br />By the way, I'm amazed at how far you are since you last posted about your work!<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If only that were really so. I seem to be skipping around a bit now that I'm using a different book which presents concepts in a different order.<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:18 am

Unfortunately for us, long and short vowels can vary according to preference, but I was taught that the future perfect goes like this:<br /><br />-ero   -erimus<br />-eris   -eritis<br />-erit   -erunt<br /><br />and the perfect subjunctive goes like this:<br /><br />-erim   -erImus<br />-erIs   -erItis<br />-erit   -erint
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:56 pm

I just had a thought (yes, that happens once in a while) ... this long/short vowel distinction in the Future Perfect and the Perfect Subjunctive will probably not help me when I'm trying to read authentic texts which don't have any macrons over their vowels. In such a case, how do you determine which verb tense is intended? I'm guessing it would be context ... something I hope to pick up on soon.<br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:24 pm

Yes, it really is all about context. Given so many forms for each word, you can only expect that some of them are going to coincide with forms that have completely different meanings or even other words altogether. :-\<br /><br />If you are not catching onto this from however much reading your book gives you, I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader. What works really well is to learn from a good, hard book, and practice just reading (with or without translating) from a fairly easy book. It will do wonders for your comprehension. Most textbooks only offer a little bit of reading and some exercises, but going over a few pages of easier Latin is a great exercise too.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:45 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6604 date=1064355880]<br />If you are not catching onto this from however much reading your book gives you, I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader. What works really well is to learn from a good, hard book, and practice just reading (with or without translating) from a fairly easy book. It will do wonders for your comprehension. Most textbooks only offer a little bit of reading and some exercises, but going over a few pages of easier Latin is a great exercise too.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's a good idea! I'll have to remember that. But I don't think Latin for Beginners ranks as a hard book, does it?
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:05 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6604 date=1064355880]<br />I would highly recommend that you pick up a beginner reader.[/quote]<br /><br />Is there a particular beginner reader you'd recommend?<br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:13 am

Most of the online ones that I have seen are more intermediate to advanced. I use the Oxford Latin Courses, which are actually meant to be used as texts, but they are so much easier than a typical grammar-oriented text that they can easily be used as readers. I have also seen a similar book called "Ecce Romani" which seems to be reading-oriented as well. Just look around for one of these or see if you can find something else that is significantly below your reading level to practice comprehension with. This does make the transition into reading Latin authors a little more difficult at first, but the benefits of sight reading really will pay off in the long run.
Last edited by benissimus on Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:24 pm

<br />Thanks for the suggestions. Do you have a preference between the Oxford Latin Course and Ecce Romani?<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Episcopus » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:58 pm

The Latin to English translation of the subjunctive always varies according to the context and construction - if you be doing the subjunctive it's imperative that all Latin subjunctiveseses be (sorry, couldn't resist ;) ) translated not literally but in the way that they are meant...if you see what I mean... <br />That's how I do it anyhow.<br /><br />Are you just doing tense forms at the moment or the syntax to go therewith also?
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:56 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6849 date=1064512729]<br />Are you just doing tense forms at the moment or the syntax to go therewith also?[/quote]<br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by syntax. I just got all these verb tenses thrown at me, and I'm just trying to sort them out. But I've found that by doing all these exercises, I'm starting to learn the tense endings. The Pluperfect Subjunctive really stands out from the rest.<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Episcopus » Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:24 pm

Ah...I see...<br /><br />I think (to risk being slapped) Dr. D'Ooge does it properly. Rather than throw all the tenses at me he did it slowly. And as for the subjunctive, he was sensible in leaving that until the page 140 onwards Syntax section as the meanings of the forms of the subjunctive vary quite a lot. <br /><br />Well that M&F course is supposed to be "Intensive", but not in a stupid way.
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:09 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=0#6863 date=1064525070]<br />I think (to risk being slapped) Dr. D'Ooge does it properly. Rather than throw all the tenses at me he did it slowly. And as for the subjunctive, he was sensible in leaving that until the page 140 onwards Syntax section as the meanings of the forms of the subjunctive vary quite a lot. [/quote]<br /><br />Perhaps I should take a look at how D'Ooge presents his subjunctive verbs. Now which page does he start talking about the subjunctive? It's not on Page 140, which is the Formation and Comparison of Adverbs.<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Episcopus » Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:34 pm

Ah yes it's more like page 147-150 :D
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:49 pm

<br />Thanks. I'll try to print out those pages before I leave work today. It's so difficult to "flip through" pages in a PDF file...<br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby benissimus » Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:39 am

You can always save bookmarks, but I do find reading from a screen and the pdf interface to be a bit uncomfortable as well.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Episcopus » Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:17 am

Yes reading latin subjunctive syntax is a little displeasing when on the computer.
phpbb
User avatar
Episcopus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby mariek » Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:31 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=689;start=15#7052 date=1064651953]<br />You can always save bookmarks, but I do find reading from a screen and the pdf interface to be a bit uncomfortable as well.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />When I was using Latin for Beginners, I always printed the pages to take with me to and from work. I didn't enjoy studying directly from the PDF file on the computer, however, I would sometimes work out the exercises in a text file on the computer (while reading from the printed version).<br /><br />I just prefer working from a book in printed form.<br /><br />
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Keesa » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:01 pm

Mercifully, I have had long practice in reading books and doing other studies on the computer. My curriculum from the age of twelve was a set of about 200 books on CDs; I worked my way through them, all on the computer. They could have been printed out, but who has that much ink?! <br /><br />Nowadays, I usually only print out "Latin for Beginners," and even then only when I won't have access to the computer for the day.
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Emma_85 » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:58 pm

I hope you have a good monitor! My eyes would kill me...
phpbb
User avatar
Emma_85
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1564
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:01 pm
Location: London

Re:future perfect or perfect subjunctive

Postby Keesa » Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:22 pm

It's not a bad monitor, as monitors go, but like the rest of us, it has its good days and its bad days...it had an awful time with [face=SPIonic]uios[/face] the other day, but it seems to be better now. ;)
phpbb
Keesa
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:59 pm

Postby benissimus » Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:23 am

Oh how lovely....

Videris can mean "you are being seen", "you will have seen", or perfect subjunctive! Latina est gaudium...
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
User avatar
benissimus
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 4:32 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Videre

Postby mariek » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:48 am


Neato mosquito! I haven't done Passives yet; that's coming in Unit 4.
User avatar
mariek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:19 pm
Location: California


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 22 guests