Textkit Logo

Two Books at Once

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Two Books at Once

Postby Coulior du Vice » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:00 am

Hi,

I'm interested in learning both Latin and Greek. I have done a lot of research on the internet regarding the difficulties of both languages and the recommended textbooks of each. I am determined to plunge into learning these languages and have fun with it.

I want to begin with Latin for a month or so, and then follow up with Greek. For Greek, I already know I want to use both Introduction to Attic Greek and Reading Greek in conjunction as to obtain the best of grammar practice and reading respectively.

However, I am still in the dark when it comes to Latin textbooks. I want to use Latin: An Intensive Course and Wheelock together, but there is no answer key for Intensive. This is a major drawback because I will be doing this completely without a teacher. I am prone to mistakes and I don't want t do anything that will hinder my progress.

My question is: Is there a textbook as rigorous and thorough as Intensive that also includes an answer key? If not, would you recommend using Intensive despite this flaw?
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby Lucus Eques » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:00 am

Wheelock is one of the worst Latin textbooks I've ever come across — I'd save your money there. Lingua Latina by Ørberg is what propelled me in just a few months' time to Latin fluency, so my heart and recommendation is definitely with it.
User avatar
Lucus Eques
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2001
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:52 pm
Location: Tōkyō, IAPONIA

Postby Coulior du Vice » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:13 am

Interesting. I'll definitely look into Lingua Latina. I'm guessing it's less grammar-oriented than Wheelock (something I hear Wheelock isn't very good at anyhow, with its awkward, unauthentic wording).

Are you familiar with Latin: An Intensive Course enough to share your opinion on it?
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby thesaurus » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:29 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "awkward, unauthentic wording," but I found Wheelock's a good Latin textbook and it was what I used to learn the rudiments of the language. Since you're studying on your own, having answer keys would be useful, too.

"Lingua Latina" is also good in a very different way. Wheelock alone won't give you a strong competence in Latin, but I think that Lingua Latina can be profitably combined with it to give you a combination of reading fluency and grammatical literacy.

When you say devoting a month or so to Latin, do you mean you intend to finish your book in that time? It's very important that you first finish whatever textbook you're using, and then continue to practice/use your Latin when you start with Greek. Otherwise, you risk losing the hard-won grammar, which is quick to fade from memory without consistent practice. Due to time constraints I've started and stopped Greek a few times and each time I only succeed in recovering old ground. Don't make my mistake.
thesaurus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:44 pm

Postby Coulior du Vice » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:19 pm

thesaurus wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "awkward, unauthentic wording,"


I was just referring to this thread when I said that. I haven't used any textbook so the best opinion I can go off of is someone else's. :oops:

thesaurus wrote:"Lingua Latina" is also good in a very different way. Wheelock alone won't give you a strong competence in Latin, but I think that Lingua Latina can be profitably combined with it to give you a combination of reading fluency and grammatical literacy.


That sounds great. But should I use Wheelock or Latin: An Intensive Course?

thesaurus wrote:When you say devoting a month or so to Latin, do you mean you intend to finish your book in that time? It's very important that you first finish whatever textbook you're using, and then continue to practice/use your Latin when you start with Greek. Otherwise, you risk losing the hard-won grammar, which is quick to fade from memory without consistent practice. Due to time constraints I've started and stopped Greek a few times and each time I only succeed in recovering old ground. Don't make my mistake.


Oh no. I was simply suggesting that I learn Latin for a month to get used to the different grammar and then start Greek simultaneously. I wanted to do this because I thought it would be easier to learn grammar without learning a whole new alphabet (a la Greek).

So, do you think I should just focus on one textbook until I'm finished with it instead of using multiple texts right at the same time?
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby thesaurus » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:28 pm

Well, having just read through that thread, I think its posters make some good points regarding the relative weaknesses and strengths of Wheelocks. I should qualify what I wrote earlier: I've come to learn Latin solidly, and I begun with Wheelocks, but since then I've made use of a lot of other resources.

Wheelock will present you with the "grammatical skeleton" of the language; you'll know the major grammatical components, but, having little reading experience, and having glossed over various intricacies, you'll find yourself struggling with raw texts. I was in intermediate level classes when I read Lingua Latina, so I can't testify as to its use as a preliminary text (however, Lucus is a living testament). In my experience, Lingua Latina fleshed out the grammatical skeleton I possessed, and coalesced often disparate grammatical elements into a coherent whole.

I have no experience with the Intense Course, but I'm sure it would work quite well if you have the time for it. It's a trade off between time spent and grammatical depth. I take the approach of 'speed reading' through a grammar (not necessarily memorizing everything right away) and then immersing myself in texts, so I enjoyed the conciseness of Wheelock's. Don't try using multiple Latin grammars, but please do combine a traditional grammar with reading courses like Lingua Latina.
thesaurus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:44 pm

Postby Coulior du Vice » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:00 am

Alright so...

The goal for me right now is to buy the beginner's Lingua Latina books first and then a grammar book sometime sooner rather than later. The only problem I have right now is on deciding on a grammar book.
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby verbum sap » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:13 am

as far as grammar books go--especially this early in your progress--i would recommend Latin Grammar (ISBN 0-19-860277-4). it's published by Oxford and it is nice and concise, designed with the student in mind.

once you get further along in your studies, then you should probably look into getting Allen & Greenough's A New Latin Grammar or somesuch other exhaustive book.
verbum sap
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:16 pm

Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:39 am

I also, for the record, started with Wheelock's — I felt like I learned a lot from it, but I only knew how ignorant I was till I actually learned Latin. Kind of like 3rd grade science class versus college biology in distance.
User avatar
Lucus Eques
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2001
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:52 pm
Location: Tōkyō, IAPONIA

Postby Coulior du Vice » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:28 am

Edit: I don't like the Dowling method anymore. :?
Last edited by Coulior du Vice on Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby cantator » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 pm

Greetings:

I also started with Wheelock. After going through the main text (30+ years ago) I read through the texts in the Reader. Oh, and I studied privately with a great teacher (Dr. Richard Hebein at Bowling Green State University in Ohio USA).

A good methodology is what works for you. Many people here use Lingua Latina and/or D'Ooge to good effect, others use other texts.

"Good efect", however, is also a matter of your intentions. The variety of intentions re: learning Latin is well-displayed here on Textkit. Some want the mental exercise, some want to speak it, some want to read Augustan-age classics, some want to read the Bible and Patristic literature. A few of us even like reading the poetry. Some are more interested in the language per se.

The best advice I ever got was to 1) master the grammar essentials then 2) read, a lot. I'd now add 3) study Latin composition (if your intentions are serious enough).

When I began studying t'ai chi one of my teachers used to say "Ten years, good beginning". The truth is that *any* art requires a long apprenticeship, with typically from five to ten years of hard study. Since our schools don't seem to encourage this kind of involvement you'll have to find the strength for it within yourself.

We all want to improve our skills, and we must understand that regardless of method employed, it takes some serious amounts of time to master the language to the point of reading and comprehending at sight. Another anecdote from my t'ai chi studies: A student asked a teacher how long he'd have to work before he mastered the art. "Five years", replied the teacher. The student then asked, "What if I work twice as hard ?", to which the teacher responded "Ten years". The point is that mastery is far more than merely recognizing constructions. Vocabulary acquisition takes time, and then you need to read broadly enough to know the differences in usage. The assimilation of grammar, vocabulary, and usage simply takes time, and how much time it takes is very much a personal matter, even given optimal teaching methods.

But none of these hardships or difficulties should put you off from the task. "What is difficult is by definition not impossible". Know that the endeavor takes time and energy. Unless you're a Schliemann or Champollion or Lucus Eques you may need to make Herculean efforts in your passage to mastery. When you're flying through Liutprand or Petronius, you'll know why you made such efforts.

Btw: Yes, I can also write in Latin. But as Arnold Schoenberg wrote, "I'm not so interested in the fact that a man speaks Chinese. I'm interested in what he's saying." Composition is not a priority for me, but I will whole-heartedly agree with its recommendation towards quicker language mastery.
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.
User avatar
cantator
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:21 am
Location: NW Ohio USA

If only I had a money tree...

Postby Coulior du Vice » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:26 am

Has anyone here used the Lingua Latina Exercitia?

I think I'm going to need it, but I have no way of checking my answers unless I pay an additional $19 for the "Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata: Teachers' Materials & Answer Keys for Pars I & II." The funds for this entire enterprise is coming out of the pocket of a high school sophomore too young to get a job, so ever penny counts.

EDIT: Actually, I just found out about a Lingua Latina CD that will save me time and money. It has the Exercitia built in it and it auto-corrects after three mistakes. The only issue with this approach is that I will be confined to a computer to do the exercises or listen to the audio (something I was hoping to avoid by buying texts rather than using the internet). Decisions, decisions... :(
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby MiguelM » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:27 am

I use the LL CDs. There are CDs matching the books, both for the textbooks (1 CD for Familia Romana and another for Roma Aeterna), and 2 other CDs for the Execitia CDs. The textbook CDs contain the correctable exercises of the Pensa. The A/B/C exercises at the end of each chapter, which correct themselves if you fail to answer correctly thrice. The Exercitia CDs contain the Exercises from the Exercitia books, which are about 11-18 exercises per chapter, and which likewise correct themselves after 3 times.

Something to note on the CDs: I don't think they can be played directly as audio CDs. The sound files are in a different format (mp3, I believe). In any case, there's nothing stopping you from burning those in a regular audio CD. Also: Familia Romana has sound files of up to chapter 30; Roma Aeterna does not have the chapter read, but instead has both the questions and answers for the Pensa C from each chapter read out instead. I think that it is to compensate that absence that the CD includes the Indices as well.
User avatar
MiguelM
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am
Location: Portugal

Postby Coulior du Vice » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:52 am

Hmm... So that means I have to buy two CD's then.

I guess I'll just buy the CD's and forget about the text until I get more money. I was hoping I could travel around and read the book instead of being stuck in a single place, but I guess I must compromise. :(
Coulior du Vice
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:24 am
Location: USA

Postby MiguelM » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:28 am

I suppose you can print the pages. They are present as image-files too, in the folder. I am not sure how expensive it'd be to print them (or have them printed) in a manner resembling the book --or even if it is copyrightly legal, but if it is, it could be a manner to enjoy the best of both worlds in a cheaper manner.

I am sure that, if you get the CDs, you'll figure out what you want.
User avatar
MiguelM
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am
Location: Portugal

Postby philplus » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:31 pm

I think Miguel is talking about CD-Roms for LL.

In fact there are also an Audio-CD which is for your CD-player, but it only contains the 10 first chapters of Familia Romana.

More info can be find at their site http://www.lingua-latina.dk/index2.htm
philplus
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:58 am
Location: Bruxella, Belgia

Re: If only I had a money tree...

Postby nov ialiste » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:47 am

Coulior du Vice wrote:Has anyone here used the Lingua Latina Exercitia?

I think I'm going to need it, but I have no way of checking my answers

You can post "done homework" here if you want corrections and some members will probably be able to help.

But as I understand it homework "to be done", well, doesn't get done. :)
nov ialiste
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:02 pm
Location: Europe


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 47 guests