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Help please

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Help please

Postby bingley » Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:37 pm

I am trying to read Cornelius Nepos' life of Militiades and have got stuck on the first sentence:<br /><br />Miltiades, Cimonis filius, Atheniensis, cum et antiquitate generis et gloria maiorum et sua modestia unus omnium maxime floreret eaque esset aetate, ut non iam solum de eo bene sperare, sed etiam confidere cives possent sui, talem eum futurum, qualem cognitum iudicarunt, accidit ut Athenienses Chersonesum colonos vellent mittere.<br /> <br />I would translate it as:<br /><br />When Miltiades son of Cimon, the Athenian, was the one out of them all who greatly abounded both in the age of his family and glory of his ancestors and in his own modesty, and was of age and so the citizens were able not only to hope well of him but be confident his future would be such as they judged, it so happened that the Athenians wished to send colonists to Chersonnese.<br /><br />I'm not sure about ea(que esset) aetate. How does the ut clause I've underlined fit in? Am I right in thinking it is a result clause? Something like he was of such an age that ... . Can is ea id be followed by a result clause in this way?<br /><br />I'm not all sure how cognitum fits in. Any suggestions?
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Re:Help please

Postby Skylax » Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:58 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=670;start=0#6335 date=1064068661]<br /> <br />I would translate it as:<br /><br />When Miltiades son of Cimon, the Athenian, was the one out of them all who greatly abounded both in the age of his family and glory of his ancestors and in his own modesty, and was of age and so the citizens were able not only to hope well of him (...)<br /><br />I'm not sure about ea(que esset) aetate. How does the ut clause I've underlined fit in? Am I right in thinking it is a result clause? Something like he was of such an age that ... . Can is ea id be followed by a result clause in this way?<br />[/quote] <br /><br />Yes, it can. Your supposition is correct.<br /><br />
<br />but be confident his future would be such as they judged,<br />
<br />"but be confident that he (Miltiades) would be (futurum esse : future infinitive of ESSE) such as they juged that he had been known (recognized)" (i.e. Miltiades' qualities would not change anymore)<br /><br />
<br />I'm not all sure how cognitum fits in. Any suggestions?
<br /><br />cognitum (ESSE implied) perfect infinitive passive of COGNOSCO, in an infinitive clause being direct object of iudicarunt., the subject EUM (= Miltiadem) is also implied.
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Re:Help please

Postby bingley » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:58 am

>>cognitum (ESSE implied) perfect infinitive passive of COGNOSCO, in an infinitive clause being direct object of iudicarunt., the subject EUM (= Miltiadem) is also implied. <br /><br />That is one thing too many being implied, to my mind. Thanks, Scylax.
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Re:Help please

Postby Skylax » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:11 pm

You may consider COGNITUM as a predicate adjective of the implied direct object (implied but denoted by the case of COGNITUM) : "such as they judged him as well-known". But in this case, is it not a little barbaric ?One more time, my knowledge of English matters...
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Re:Help please

Postby Episcopus » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:20 pm

Puis je dire, Skylax, que ton anglais c'est magnifique. Je ne sais point pourquoi tu dis que tu n'es pas fort en anglais mais si je pouvais écrire en français ainsi je serais très content ;)
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Re:Help please

Postby bingley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:18 pm

I've finished reading the life now, but I do have some questions:<br />1.1.4-5<br /><br />hoc oraculi responso Miltiades cum delecta manu classe Chersonesum profectus cum accessisset Lemnum et incolas eius insulae sub potestatem redigere vellet Atheniensium, idque Lemnii sua sponte facerent postulasset, illi irridentes responderunt tum id se facturos, cum ille domo navibus proficiscens vento aquilone venisset Lemnum.<br /><br /><br />On this answer of the oracle, Miltiades, with the band chosen, set out for the Chersonnese by the fleet, and when he reached Lemnos and wished to to bring the inhabitants of the island back under the power of the Athenians and demanded the Lemnians do so voluntarily, they laughed and answered that they would do this when he, having set out for home by ship, came to Lemnos by a north wind.<br /><br />Not very elegant, but it's as much to show how I think the Latin works as to put it into English.<br /><br />Am I right in thinking profectus (est) is the main verb, and that we should also assume et cum acccessisset... ?<br /><br />Is idque Lemnii sua sponte facerent an indirect command after postulasset? If it is, shouldn't there be an ut, or is that optional?<br /><br />1.4.5<br />unus Miltiades maxime nitebatur, ut primo quoque tempore castra fierent; id si factum esset, et civibus animum accessurum, cum viderent de eorum virtute non desperari, et hostes eadem re fore tardiores, si animadverterent auderi adversus se tam exiguis copiis dimicari. <br /><br />Miltiades alone strongly urged (them) that they should first make a capmp, and that if this were done, it would bring courage to the citizens when they saw that their bravery need not be despaired of, and the enemy would be slowed down by the same thing, when they realised they dared be fought against with such small forces.<br /><br />Why factum esset? I would have expected faceretur as happening after the nitebatur.<br />
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Re:Help please

Postby Skylax » Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:24 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=670;start=0#6439 date=1064233101]<br />Am I right in thinking profectus (est) is the main verb, and that we should also assume et cum acccessisset... ?<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />Profectus is rather a participle belonging to Miltiades, this word being subject of accessisset and postulasset. The main verb is responderunt, of which subject is illi (=Lemnii).<br /><br />Well, Nepos begins his sentence as if Miltiades was the subject of the main clause, but he changed his mind.<br /><br />
<br />Is idque Lemnii sua sponte facerent an indirect command after postulasset? If it is, shouldn't there be an ut, or is that optional?
<br /><br />It is optional but highly recommended to students.<br /><br />
<br />Why factum esset? I would have expected fieret as happening after the nitebatur.<br />
<br /><br />Id si factum esset... dimicari is a "free" indirect discourse (without expression of an introductory verb) : <br />factum esset replaces a factum erit (future perfect) of the direct discourse : "if this will have been done, it will bring courage...".<br />
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Re:Help please

Postby bingley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:12 pm

Thanks again Skylax.<br /><br />>>Id si factum esset... dimicari is a "free" indirect discourse (without expression of an introductory verb) : <br /><br />Yes, I assumed we were still in indirect speech as part of what M. said in the nitebatur<br /><br />factum esset replaces a factum erit (future perfect) of the direct discourse : "if this will have been done, it will bring courage...".<br /><br />I think I need a refresher on the rules for conditionals in indirect speech. Any suggestions?<br /><br />
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