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Perseus slow? Try Diogenes.

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Perseus slow? Try Diogenes.

Postby annis » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:20 pm

Diogenes is actually an interface to the TLG — that part of it will be useless to most of us , given the cost of the TLG. The newest release, however, comes with the big Latin and Greek (LSJ) dictionaries Perseus offers. Simply select "Look up word" from the front page, and enter Unicode for Greek or plain old text for Latin.

It does not include any texts, so it's just a very snazzy dictionary. I'm sure going to be using it a lot.

It's about 500M (Mac version — I expect the others to be comparable) so clean that music you never listen to any more from your hard drive.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re: Perseus slow? Try Diogenes.

Postby Deses » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:45 pm

Do the dictionaries come with the program or are they accessed online? I have been toying with an idea of making something like that. Mine wouldn't be a 500 mb download, though :)
<a href="http://www.inrebus.com"> In Rebus: Latin quotes and phrases; Latin mottos; Windows interface for Latin Words </a>
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Re: Perseus slow? Try Diogenes.

Postby annis » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:50 pm

Deses wrote:Do the dictionaries come with the program or are they accessed online?


The dictionaries come with. The TEI XML markup of the dictionaries is largely responsible for their giant size.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:21 pm

Thanks for pointing that out. So far it's been extremely useful, especially since my backup to perseus (http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/pollux/) seems to be down and that didn't accept unicode anyway and didn't know how to ignore accents. And now I don't need to be online to check words. Maybe a bit big but very nice overall.
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Postby ndansmith » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:45 am

Don't forget, Diogenes is also Free Software. :-)
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Postby edonnelly » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:45 pm

The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby annis » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:03 am

edonnelly wrote:But, how could I just enter a word somewhere and get this same analysis?


Talk to your local Perl nutjob. In this particular case, that would be me.

I have altered the application a bit to make morphological parsing one of the menu items in the "Action" selection. I'm going to see if I can get the Diogenes author to include it in his standard release.
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Postby annis » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

annis wrote:Talk to your local Perl nutjob. In this particular case, that would be me.


Ooh, lest anyone get the wrong impression, I must confess — I am a Perl apostate, and have been for some time. But there's so much of the stuff I still have to handle it regularly.
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Postby edonnelly » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:20 am

annis wrote:I have altered the application a bit to make morphological parsing one of the menu items in the "Action" selection. I'm going to see if I can get the Diogenes author to include it in his standard release.


Wow, that would be incredible! It's the parsing functionality that sends me to Perseus more than anything. A tool that did nothing but that plus LSJ-lookups would be an awesome and sought-after stand-alone application, I would think.

And let me beat Nathan (ndansmith) to the punch -- this is one of the really great things about Free Software.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby annis » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:26 pm

The 3.1.6 release (coming today or tomorrow, Heslin says) will have a modified Dictionary action which will do parse and lookup.
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Postby edonnelly » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:25 pm

annis wrote:The 3.1.6 release (coming today or tomorrow, Heslin says) will have a modified Dictionary action which will do parse and lookup.


Wow, I just downloaded and installed this version. It is really incredible. Thank you so much.

I was mostly interested in the Greek aspects, but fans of Whitaker's Words program will likely find this superior for Latin-to-English lookups.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby annis » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:48 am

edonnelly wrote:Wow, I just downloaded and installed this version. It is really incredible. Thank you so much.


Thank Heslin. :) He added the functionality in a way that didn't involve my patch (probably for the best — I banged it out in about 30 minutes).
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Postby 1%homeless » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:44 am

Well well, it is about time! :D I hope there's an option to avoid installing the English dictionary.
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Postby Turendil » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

would it be possible to seperate the latins from the greek? That way I can run both from CD?
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Postby edonnelly » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:03 am

annis wrote:Thank Heslin.

Excellent idea! (and now done).

Kudos also to Perseus for releasing all of that morphological data as well its digitization of the lexicons under Creative Commons. Maybe some other applications will start to pop up, too.

Turendil wrote:would it be possible to seperate the latins from the greek? That way I can run both from CD?

I don't know exactly what you would do to run it from a CD. The whole thing installed, though, is almost exactly 500 MB, so even together it should fit on a CD. The overwhelming bulk of that space (450 MB) is used by a directory called "Perseus_Data," which contains a handful of very large files, most of which are clearly labeled latin or greek, so it would be easy to at least try to delete out the Perseus data for one language or the other and see if things still work.

1%homeless wrote:I hope there's an option to avoid installing the English dictionary.


In that same directory, the file labeled "gcide.txt" appears to be the 1913 English dictionary, so you could try to delete that if you really want to save to 38MB or so it uses.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby edonnelly » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:57 pm

I have to say I am loving this program. It also comes with a server, which I set up on a local machine. I then made a little firefox "searchengine" box for my browser. Now I can open any file or webpage in firefox. I can right-cllick on any word and there's automatically an option to do a morphological search on Diogenes, which will open instantly in another tab. I'm working on book II of the Iliad and tried it out by opening a .txt version of the book in Firefox. It's unbelievable how fast this all is.

If you decide to setup and run the server, you can easily make the little search box by going to the directory with your firefox profile information and making a little file called diogenes.xml that simply contains the following:

Code: Select all
<SearchPlugin xmlns="http://www.mozilla.org/2006/browser/search/" xmlns:os="http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearch/1.1/">
<os:ShortName>Diogenes</os:ShortName>
<os:Description>Morphological search for Latin and Greek words</os:Description>
<os:InputEncoding>UTF-8</os:InputEncoding>
<os:Image width="16" height="16">data:image/x-icon;base64,R0lGODdhIAAgAIABAADv7////ywAAAAAIAAgAAACWYyPqcvtDwOIFIFZ6c3xYu54H6iII2mJaDmp67G5rwR782bI6GmveP0DnSQ94ZB47Bx1lSRT2Xg+krkiNBSEZFnbqNaKVVIT41SXXAamTew2GO2Ov2f0Or0AADs=</os:Image>
<os:Url type="text/html" method="POST" template="http://192.168.0.100:8888/Diogenes.cgi"> 
 <os:Param name="JumpTo" value=""/> 
 <os:Param name="FontName" value=""/> 
 <os:Param name="action" value="parse"/>
 <os:Param name="corpus" value="TLG+Texts"/> 
 <os:Param name="query" value="{searchTerms}"/>
 <os:Param name="go" value="Go"/> 
 <os:Param name="greek_output_formatXXstate" value="UTF-8"/> 
 <os:Param name="current_pageXXstate" value="splash"/>
</os:Url>
</SearchPlugin>


and just replace "http://192.168.0.100:8888/Diogenes.cgi" up there with whatever server and port you use for the server (you can even use localhost if you set the server up on the same computer that you will be reading texts on).

You will then have a "Diogenes" option for your search box (where currently you probably have Google, Yahoo, etc.)

I once had it set up like this to do searches on Perseus, but it was so slow that it was almost pointless. Also, Perseus uses different links for latin vs. greek searches, while Diogenes is smart enough to figure out which, so you only need one search engine. Perseus also doesn't handle unicode input well (if at all) while Diogenes handles it perfectly.

EDIT: Sorry about the wrap-around problem.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby annis » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:03 am

Nifty.

Mac users will need to create a directory. In your home directory search out:

Code: Select all
Library/Application Support/Firefox/Profiles/gobbledee.guck


That last part of the path will be different for everyone. In that create the directory "searchplugins" (no spaces or quotes). Put the XML file into that, and restart.
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Postby Bert » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:01 am

You guys are so computer savvy it makes my head spin.
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Postby annis » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:54 pm

edonnelly wrote:I have to say I am loving this program. It also comes with a server, which I set up on a local machine.


I will add, for anyone scared off by this, that simply starting Diogenes
starts the server, which it runs in the background. Display is handled
by the Mozilla project XULRunner. Just start up Diogenes and minimize
it to use it with Firefox on the same machine.
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Postby 1%homeless » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:13 am

In that same directory, the file labeled "gcide.txt" appears to be the 1913 English dictionary, so you could try to delete that if you really want to save to 38MB or so it uses.


Well thanks for the tip. Anyhoo, to risk program stablity (or some other ungodly oversight), saving 38 megs indirectly isn't attractive.
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Postby tico » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:15 pm

To annis:

Thanks for the tip and for enabling the morphological analysis tool. I like the dictionary function too. But concerning the search tool, I don’t like it the way it is. If you want to search a specific author (or some specifics authors), you need to select it (them) and save as a corpus. This is not practical. It would be better to have a direct access to the author/works list and be able to select one or more author/works and them make a search without having to save a corpus. The way you navigate through the texts (browse to a specific passage etc.) is unpractical too. You only have a small passage shown in the browser, not the whole text and it’s too complicate to navigate through the text. It would be nicer to have the whole text in one page, sou you could use page up/page down to see the text. In my humble opinion, the author should take a look at some good programs as TLG Workplace and Antiquarium.
annis, since you know perl and have already collaborate with the author, could you please give him these suggestions and maybe help him to implement them?
What do you (annis) think? And you, the guys who are using Diogenes? What do you think? Do you have any other suggestion?
Thanks.
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Postby Bert » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:06 am

After you guys talking about changing this, and doing that to the program, I am a little embarrassed that I'm not even able to download it. I'm sure that one of you kind souls is willing to help me along.
I can't get past the point where it says


You have selected to download the 3.1.6 release.

Below is a list of files contained in this release.
Before downloading, you may want to read the release notes.

It tells me what I have selected, but I knew that already. How do I get the downloading to start?
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Postby edonnelly » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:45 am

Bert wrote:It tells me what I have selected, but I knew that already. How do I get the downloading to start?


Click on the file named "diogenes-windows-3.1.6.exe" -- that should take you to one of those pages that says "your download should begin shortly" and it should start saving the file. If it doesn't, then there is a link on that same page where you can right-click and do a "save-as."

tico -- My comments about the program were only about the dictionary and morphological search, which I think are fantastic. I don't have the TLG so I can't use those functions of the program.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby Kopio » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 am

Ok...either I am incredibly dense (a real possibility) or I am just missing something. When I try and morphologically analyze a word it just doesn't seem to work.

I have tried parsing λυομεν, βαλλομεν, and οιδαμεν with no results. So...what am I doing wrong. And yes....I just downloaded the newest release this afternoon.
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Postby NuclearWarhead » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:35 am

Fiat iustitia et pereat mundus.
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Diogenes

Postby Socrates the Cyborg » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:05 pm

Yah, I started downloading all of the files in that list until I realized that you only need the one relevant to your operating system. I have been using it and am very impressed. I downloaded copies of the Iliad and Odyssey from 'the little sailing' which were linked to from here. I can open Diogenes, set it to morphological analysis and then just highlight the word and move it from the text window to the Diogenes window, drop it with accents breathings etc. and get a readout so much faster than the old perseus way. That Greek text reader that paul made was really cool except for the perseus delays. This is much more satisfactory in some ways. Maybe we could get the best of both worlds and have it look the word up in diogenes. Is that possible?
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Postby annis » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:30 pm

tico wrote:annis, since you know perl and have already collaborate with the author, could you please give him these suggestions and maybe help him to implement them?


There's no way I'm dropping the cash to buy the TLG, so there's no way for me to test any of the alterations you ask for, nor even to see if I agree that the changes need to be made. Sorry.
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Re: Diogenes

Postby annis » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:07 pm

Socrates the Cyborg wrote:This is much more satisfactory in some ways. Maybe we could get the best of both worlds and have it look the word up in diogenes. Is that possible?


Not yet. I contacted Perseus, and though the dictionaries are included in Diogenes, they aren't technically released under an open license. They will be, just not yet. When they are I will install the Diogenes server on Textkit (with a pared down menu of actions), and try to shame some academic departments into doing the same thing.
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Re: Diogenes

Postby edonnelly » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:23 pm

annis wrote:Not yet. I contacted Perseus, and though the dictionaries are included in Diogenes, they aren't technically released under an open license. They will be, just not yet.


That's interesting. On the Diogenes site, it seems to say that they already have been released under Creative Commons:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.heslin/Softwar ... ntacts.php

The publication by Perseus of its data under Creative Commons licensing is an enormous public benefit, and you should thank them for it.


But I guess that was a bit premature. In any case, I'm happy because I can use it. Do the Perseus people say that even running a public Diogenes server is not allowed right now, or are they just worried about derivative programs appearing?
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Re: Diogenes

Postby annis » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:43 pm

edonnelly wrote:Do the Perseus people say that even running a public Diogenes server is not allowed right now, or are they just worried about derivative programs appearing?


I made clear in my email to them that I intended to run a public Diogenes server so nothing was said about the second part of your question. They are evidently not satisfied (their words) with the current state of the dictionary files. I'm not sure what that means. They are working now on getting other things ready for release.

I'm just happy to know they'll be freely available sooner rather than later.
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Postby Tertius Robertus » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:19 pm

burning goats! thanks for showing that

Image
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Postby annis » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:37 pm

Tertius Robertus wrote:burning goats!


Um. What does that mean? What language is this coming from?
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Postby Tertius Robertus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:50 pm

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Postby edonnelly » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:37 pm

Tertius Robertus wrote:further, when i try the morphological search, even with the accents, be it in greek, as with ἔθυον, be it in latin, as fregisset, a message is returned that states the lemmata could not be found. what am i doing wrong ?


Use the 'Parse the inflection...' option, not the 'Morphological Search..." one.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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Postby Tertius Robertus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:49 pm

thanks, edonnelly!
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Re: Diogenes

Postby Paul » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:53 pm

Socrates the Cyborg wrote: That Greek text reader that paul made was really cool except for the perseus delays. This is much more satisfactory in some ways. Maybe we could get the best of both worlds and have it look the word up in diogenes. Is that possible?


Hmm...it sounds like I might be able to modify AGTM to resolve lexical lookups from a "local resolver" (the Diogenes dictionary). Is this what you had in mind?

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby mingshey » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:16 pm

Thanks for the tip, annis.
Edonnelly, I cannot figure out how to make the Diogenes server get running on my Windows PC. And I somehow managed to remove the conventional search box that has Google, etc. as the options and instead, I use Google toolbar on firefox. So I just got satisfied with using Diogenes as a dictionary. And it's what I always wanted since I used WORDS, Latin Dictionary. :D
On the TLG site they tell you about subscribing. But there's no info how to buy their CD that contains the corpus data. Although the online version would have the more extended data, the CD would fairly do much for individual amateur philologists; especially when Perseus is under maintenance.
Like Perseus, did they stopped selling their CD, and servicing only on line?
:cry:
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Postby annis » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:05 pm

mingshey wrote:Like Perseus, did they stopped selling their CD, and servicing only on line?


I believe so.
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Re: Diogenes

Postby Socrates the Cyborg » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:41 pm

Paul wrote:
Socrates the Cyborg wrote: That Greek text reader that paul made was really cool except for the perseus delays. This is much more satisfactory in some ways. Maybe we could get the best of both worlds and have it look the word up in diogenes. Is that possible?


Hmm...it sounds like I might be able to modify AGTM to resolve lexical lookups from a "local resolver" (the Diogenes dictionary). Is this what you had in mind?

Cordially,

Paul


Yah, that is exactly what I meant. That would be very cool! Thanks!
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Postby annis » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:45 pm

I got longer email from Perseus after I last posted here about the copyright question. They don't want people changing the dictionary or morphology database before it is released under a proper license. As for making them available publicly via Diogenes on open web pages: "go for it."
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