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Matthew 15:5: indefinite relative pronoun usage

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Matthew 15:5: indefinite relative pronoun usage

Postby vir litterarum » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:05 am

ὑμει̂ς δὲ λέγετε  ̔̀Ος ἂν εἴπῃ τῳ̂ πατÏ￾á½¶ á¼¢ τῃ̂ μητÏ￾ί Δω̂Ï￾ον ὃ á¼￾ὰν á¼￾ξ á¼￾μου̂ ὠφεληθῃ̂ς, [6] οá½￾ μὴ τιμήσει τὸν πατέÏ￾α αá½￾του̂:
Matthew15.5-6

is the accusative "o ean" used here as an adverbial accusative of degree, i.e. "...to whatever extent you may gain advantage from me..."?
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Re: Matthew 15:5: indefinite relative pronoun usage

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:47 pm

I'm not sure about this verse, but I in the main clause, the only way I can see to read it is as δῶÏ￾ον [á¼￾στὶν τοῦτο] ὃ á¼￾ᾶν... so taking it as degree doesn't seem to fit in the larger clause.

In the relative clause, I understand at is as some kind of object of ὠφεληθῇς, which would mean something like "receive as help" or "derive benefit from/by" (or maybe even simply "acquire"). Sort of like an extension of πολλὰ ὠφελεῖν τινα. So "whatever you might receive as help from me".
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Postby vir litterarum » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:22 am

I looked in LSJ, though, and did not see any evidence of the aorist passive having an object in the accusative. The whole verse is confusing to me, and I've looked at several commentaries on it.
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Postby Bert » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:25 pm

I think that the relative pronoun is nominative and is the subject of ὠφελήθης and that it is in apposition to δῶÏ￾ον. δῶÏ￾ον would be nominative because of the implied á¼￾στιν. I am willing to be corrected though.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:39 pm

Well, the LSJ has "esp. of troops, acquire booty, πολλὰ παÏ￾á½° τὴν στÏ￾ατείαν á½ . Plu.Cat.Ma.10;" although πολλὰ is probably not a direct object here. But the passive forms already had a middle meaning in Classical Greek so it wouldn't be all that strange for them to be construed with a direct object. I agree that it's an odd verse but I'm not sure how else to understand it.

It also seems to have been understood this way in ancient times. Here's a commentary on this verse (based on a passage from John Chrysostom):

Τί á¼￾στιν, “ὃς ἂν εἴπῃ τῷ πατÏ￾á½¶ á¼¢ τῇ μητÏ￾á½¶ δῶÏ￾ον, ὃ á¼￾ὰν á¼￾ξ “á¼￾μοῦ ὠφεληθῇς, καὶ οá½￾ τιμήσῃ τὸν πατέÏ￾α ἑαυτοῦ;â€￾ á¼￾παίδευσαν τοὺς νέους, εá½￾σεβείας σχήματι, καταφÏ￾ονεῖν τῶν γονέων· οἷον, εἴ τις εἶπεν τῷ ἰδίῳ υἱῷ· δός μοι τὸ Ï€Ï￾όβατον, ὃ ἔχεις, á¼¢ τὸν μόσχον, á¼¢ ἄλλο τι τοιοῦτον, ἔλεγε Ï€Ï￾ὸς πατέÏ￾α, δῶÏ￾όν á¼￾στι τῷ Θεῷ τοῦτο, ὃ θέλεις á¼￾ξ á¼￾μοῦ ὠφεληθῆναι, καὶ οá½￾ δÏ￾νασαι λαβεῖν·

This has the same issue with ὃ and the passive of ὠφελῶ but I think the context is clearer for what is meant
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