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Modern words in ancient grammar.

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Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby mingshey » Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:02 am

Looking from time to time at the agora board, I'm curious about what you people think about mixing modern words in the ancient greek construct.<br />To say, if you want to say "I like beer", there seems to be no dedicated word for 'beer' except the words set meaning "the (thing) out of barley" or just 'wine'. Since there's a modern word for it "beera([face=SPIonic][size=18=12]mpura[/face][/size])", it would be more natural to use it. but it has quite different spelling rules in it. So it's on the other hand unnatural to mix in classical greek.<br />And cat, cute - I love cats, but not so need to be dignified(cats have dignity, though), sounds quite odd to use the long word 'ailouros' than to use modern, and short, 'gatos(or gata)'.<br />And the computer generation would need many new words to express themselves, [face=SPIonic][size=18=12]pluktrologio, upologisthj, ktl.[/face][/size].
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby greagach » Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:19 pm

Hallo, mingshey. <br /><br />it's true that we cannot help using "present-day" Greek words in a modern or at least more technical context, but I'm not sure if they have to be coming directly from modern Greek itself, especially when there are (classical) Greek equivalents available. <br /><br /> In fact, there is a uniquely Greek word for "beer", and that is [face=SPIonic] zu=qoj [/face]. (And the pub, the Bierstub, is the Greek [face=SPIonic] zuqopwlei=on [/face], easy to guess why)<br /><br /> And the word for cat, not just feline, is actually [face=SPIonic] galh= [/face] ( [face=SPIonic] katoiki/dioj [/face] ).<br /><br /> The other side of the story is that if some learner wants to use the words [face=SPIonic] mpu/rra [/face] or [face=SPIonic] ga/toj [/face], (both of them clearly of mediaeval northern Italian origin), no problem at all, but these would sound definitely "barbarian" to the classical Greek ear, where -let's not forget- almost every word respects the roots and sound system of the language, originally one with few if any foreign loans. <br /><br /> The same would be for bringing new words and foreign names into Greek, or coining new vocabulary. I've noticed so far that they HAVE TO be changed, in order to suit the grammatical rules (declension and endings, especially) and harmony of Greek. Or else, they do sound cacophonous or too inflexible.<br /><br /> So, I suppose it's OK to use modern Greek words in the agora, provided we knew modern Greek (too!) and had such dictionaries, and of course knew quite a bit about the rules and language structure of Greek...<br /><br /> If you really want to use modern vocabulary with the classical Greek language, I suggest you got hold of a good dictionary of KATHAREVOUSA, until recently the formal version of Greek in that country. It will contain most of the modern vocabulary in all fields, with the advantage that you can be certain that it's completely Greek and "safe to use".<br /><br /> [face=SPIonic] e)pi/ th=i eu)kairi/a, pi/nw me/n zu=qon e)ni/ote, a)lla/ bdelu/ttomai ta/j pa/shj fu/sewj gala=j [/face] ! ! <br /><br />
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby annis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:30 pm

I agree that consulting Katharevousa is a good start for modern vocabulary.<br /><br />One useful site for a quick check on modern vocab in classical Greek is Joan Coderch's Akropolis World News where modern news stories are cast in Attic Greek. He has a page devoted to modern vocabulary here: http://www.xtec.es/~jcoderch/vocabulary.htm.<br /><br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby mingshey » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:53 am

Thank you, Greagach and William!<br /><br />Although the dictionaries might not be perfect, the LSJ tells me [face=SPIonic][size=18=12]galh=[/face][/size] is a weasel, not a simple(?) cat. And Woodhouse doesn't tell about [face=SPIonic][size=18=12]zu=qoj[/face][/size], while it appears in LSJ as a composite form. So, not having aquired word power through long studies of texts, and relying on the dictionaries only , I had the slightest chance to access those words. So it seems I need a prolonged study before I can compose a simple sentence I want to express, reading much and piling up vocabularies slowly. Need to practice grammar, too. -- So my concern about the words thing is premature, really. ;D<br /><br />The acropolis news looks wonderful. Do you William write articles for the news?<br /><br />And Greagach, why is that you hate beer and milk so much? :D<br />
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby greagach » Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:39 am

did I say so?? when was that? <br /><br /> I LOVE beer (just not all kinds, porter's by far my favourite), milk too! Only that I can't bear cats; sorry, it must be my having grown up in the countryside, in an extended family of farmers... with lots of dogs around!!<br /><br /><br /> [ translation of Greek statement, a couple of postings above: "By the way, I'll drink beer from time to time, but I won't bear any cats!" ]
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:03 pm

A lot of people either love cats or hate them. It's hard to love a cat-they make sure of that-but once you do, they suddenly become eminently lovable. With one cat we had, at one time, it was as if we had to pass a test-two weeks of hissing, snarling and scratching, then the silly thing just melted into us, and we learned a new definition of the words "loud purr." <br /><br />I find that I have a similar problem in French (similar to your modern/Ancient Greek problem, that is, not to our cat...); I don't know enough vocabulary to say what I want to say (hence readers and small books!), but I know a great deal of the grammar; I'll be trying to say something, and I suddenly won't know the word for something, so I'll just use the English word and go on. (So far I only speak to my mother, so that's all right. ;D) <br /><br />I find that reading a dictionary, just as you would a book, is an incredibly enlightening thing to do, as long as you read it many, many times, and don't get one word confused with another definition. ;D I don't have a Greek dictionary at the moment, but if you do, reading it is always...interesting. :)<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Modern words in ancient grammar.

Postby mingshey » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:09 am

[quote author=greagach link=board=6;threadid=643;start=0#6106 date=1063712365]<br /> did I say so?? when was that? <br /><br /> I LOVE beer (just not all kinds, porter's by far my favourite), milk too! Only that I can't bear cats; sorry, it must be my having grown up in the countryside, in an extended family of farmers... with lots of dogs around!!<br /><br /><br /> [ translation of Greek statement, a couple of postings above: "By the way, I'll drink beer from time to time, but I won't bear any cats!" ] <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ouch! <br />Now I see milk is [face=SPIonic][size=18=12]ga/la[/face][/size], with accute on penultima. I'm not accustomed to taking accents as part of the word yet. And [face=SPIonic][size=18=12]galh=[/face][/size] is quite new to me.
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