usage of "te"

[vir litterarum]

μη̂νιν* ἀÌ￾ειδε* θεὰ ΠηληϊαÌ￾δεω* ̓Αχιλη̂ος**
οὐλομεÌ￾νην***, ἣ μυÏ￾ιÌ￾'* ̓Αχαιοι̂ς* ἀÌ￾λγε'* ἐÌ￾θηκε,
πολλὰς δ' ἰφθιÌ￾μους** ψυχὰς Ì“Ì￾Αϊδι*** Ï€Ï￾οιÌ￾̈αψεν
ἡÏ￾ωÌ￾ων*, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλωÌ￾Ï￾ια* τευ̂χε** κυÌ￾νεσσιν**
οἰωνοι̂σι*Ì￾ τε πα̂σι*, Διὸς δ' ἐτελειÌ￾ετο** βουληÌ￾**
Iliad 1.1-5

Is "te" here only coordinating "kunessin" with "oiwnoisin," or is it coordinating
"elwria" with "daita"?

[perispomenon]

μη̂νιν* ἀÌ￾ειδε* θεὰ ΠηληϊαÌ￾δεω* ̓Αχιλη̂ος**
οὐλομεÌ￾νην***, ἣ μυÏ￾ιÌ￾'* ̓Αχαιοι̂ς* ἀÌ￾λγε'* ἐÌ￾θηκε,
πολλὰς δ' ἰφθιÌ￾μους** ψυχὰς Ì“Ì￾Αϊδι*** Ï€Ï￾οιÌ￾̈αψεν
ἡÏ￾ωÌ￾ων*, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλωÌ￾Ï￾ια* τευ̂χε** κυÌ￾νεσσιν**
οἰωνοι̂σι*Ì￾ τε πα̂σι*, Διὸς δ' ἐτελειÌ￾ετο** βουληÌ￾**
Iliad 1.1-5

Is "te" here only coordinating "kunessin" with "oiwnoisin," or is it coordinating
"elwria" with "daita"?

You mean 'pasi' instead of ' daita', I suppose? I would say, since it precedes οιώνοισι it would have to coordinate the whole of οἰωνοι̂σι*Ì￾ πα̂σι*

[Bert]

You mean 'pasi' instead of ' daita', I suppose?

that depends on whose copy you read.

[vir litterarum]

Sorry I am using a different text than Perseus project does. I cannot find one to copy and paste from, so, assuming "daita" were in "pasi" place, would the "te" connect "elwria" and "daita" or just " kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?

[modus.irrealis]

With δαῖτα, I think it's impossible for τε to be coordinating κÏ￾νεσσιν and οἰωνοῖσι, since that would leave δαῖτα with nothing to do. To bracket things, you would have

αá½￾τοὺς ἑλώÏ￾ια τεῦχε (κÏ￾νεσσιν οἰωνοῖσί τε) δαῖτα

and then you'd have three accusative for τεῦχε and it's unclear what role δαῖτα is playing. But if you bracket it as (and rearranging the words to make the bracketing possible)

αá½￾τοὺς τεῦχε [(ἑλώÏ￾ια κÏ￾νεσσιν) (οἰωνοῖσί τε δαῖτα)]

it makes perfect sense (at least if my bracket thing makes any sense at all). So I would say it coordinates οἰωνοίσι δαῖτα with ἑλώÏ￾ια κÏ￾νεσσιν.

[vir litterarum]

I agree that that is a possibility, but, if that is the case, why is "te" not placed after "daita," and couldn't "daita" along with κÏ￾νεσσιν and οἰωνοῖσι be in apposition with "elwria", i.e. " ...made the men themselves prey, a feast for dogs and birds."?

[modus.irrealis]

If τε coordinates οἰωνοῖσι δαῖτα with κÏ￾νεσσι ἑλώÏ￾ια, it has to go after οἰωνοῖσι because it regularly stands in second position of whatever it's coordinating.

I never thought of the apposition idea, but as far as I can tell, it's possible and makes good sense. I guess it would be unambiguous when spoken (or sung), but obviously we don't have access to that. The only thing I can think of is to wonder whether the line-end suggests that κÏ￾νεσσιν goes with what comes before instead of the next line -- that's probably why I analyzed it the way I did, because I have a tendency to read in terms of lines -- but I don't know enough to say what usually happens in Homer in these circumstances.

[jk0592]

There is a pdf file "Iliad A notes" by C. Bochan, containing parsed Iliad A scholia. You will find there a comment on this specific example.

It is mentioned there that according to a great specialist on Greek particles, namely Dennison, in his work "The Greek Particles" (as i can infer) this would be an "example of a single te connecting two words", and that this te "follows the second word".

Hoping this is some help to you.

[Tertius Robertus]

the link is www dot freewebs dot com slash mhninaeide slash

for some weird reason the server does not allow the link to be posted directly

just in case someone is wondering....

[jk0592]

Inserting the actual link also caused me many headaches, that is why I posted the information that could be "googled". Sometimes I do not understand the fancy technology which permits such great information exchange.

[vir litterarum]

Do you know if Dennison is using the text with "pasi" or the text with "daita"? If he is using "pasi," it is easy to understand how "te" is functioning. I was just not aware that "te" still held the second position when it is connecting one direct and indirect object with another direct and indirect object.

[jk0592]

I have no access to the book by Dennison. But the text being analyzed by Bochan, in which the specific reference to Dennison is made, uses "pasi", not "daita".

[annis]

I was just not aware that "te" still held the second position when it is connecting one direct and indirect object with another direct and indirect object.

If you take the reading δαῖτα, I would think of τε in this line as joining clauses, which here has elided the verb τεῦχε.

[vir litterarum]

where would "te" be placed if one merely wanted to coordinate "kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?

[annis]

where would "te" be placed if one merely wanted to coordinate "kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?

κύνεσσιν οἰωνοῖσί τε.

[vir litterarum]

but that is the word order.

[jk0592]

Interestingly, Pharr in his Homeric Greek, does use the "daita" version of Iliad A, line 5, not the "pasi". As faras I can see, no special discussion in Pharr accompany the use of "te" before "daita".

[annis]

but that is the word order.

No, the order is: ἑλώÏ￾ια τεῦχε κÏ￾νεσσιν / οἰωνοῖσί τε δαῖτα, a simple chiasmus ACC+DAT DAT+ACC.

In language context always matters. What follows the τε will always be necessary to know certainly if it's linking words, phrases or clauses.

[Helma]

but that is the word order.

No, the order is: ἑλώÏ￾ια τεῦχε κÏ￾νεσσιν / οἰωνοῖσί τε δαῖτα, a simple chiasmus ACC+DAT DAT+ACC.

In language context always matters. What follows the τε will always be necessary to know certainly if it's linking words, phrases or clauses.

Yes -- just to say this once over in different words. TE must be in second position. That gives you a starting point for what it connects. (The old mnemonic for translating te: "Read .. X te ..as ..kai X..") But there is no implied end point. Ditto for other postpositives, or conjunctions for that matter. You assume that what follows a conjunction falls under its scope until you have evidence to the contrary.