Chris Weimer wrote:It's a logical fallacy. Just because two things coincide doesn't mean one follows the other. See here for an explanation of the fallacy.
if a people with an advanced culture, add Greek to their culture, they will have a huge advantage over other cultures that don't.
Turendil wrote:if a people with an advanced culture, add Greek to their culture, they will have a huge advantage over other cultures that don't.
Sorry. Don't buy it. It's a logical fallacy. Plenty of people spoke and read ancient greek and still managed to be uncivillized.
Turendil wrote:PEOPLE make civilizations not the study of a language.
Turendil wrote:Many intelligent erudite people who knew greek contributed greatly to western civ. However many dumb, ignorant, well educated people with no insight or understanting also knew greek.
Recently I have been assigned to write a rhetoric text for my Greek course. I chose to take Greek itself as subject, but decided to use an unorthodox Î ÏÎ¿Î¸ÎµÏƒÎ¹Ï‚: I stated that Greek is a condition for civilisation.
As I started doing research, it seemed more and more plausible that my statement isn't all that absurd.
My Narratio could be summarised as the following:
The Greeks, as they knew Greek, had a florishing civilisation.
The Romans, as long as they studied Greek (Late Republic and Principate), had a mighty empire.
Romans stop learning Greek, empire splits.
Greek part of Roman empire florishes, Rome, without Greek, falls.
Byzantium transfers Greek to Arabs, who then have a florishing culture and mighty empire.
Byzantians flee to Italy with Greek texts, Renaissance starts.
Europe learns Greek, Europe conquers the world.
Explanation: studying great examples and thinking about them makes you a better person, as thoughts eventually form character.
Am I seeing things or might there actually be a connection.
Studying great examples and thinking about them makes you a better person, as thoughts eventually form character.
megas_yiannakis wrote:If anyone lives in a democratic country, they are experiencing GREEK CULTURE.
interesting... I learnt that the western democratic institutions were prompted by local developments and were autonomous from and not based on ancient Greek (Athenian) democracy.
Turendil wrote:To answer your question in short I would say that in england the rise of representative government was a response to local condtions which gradually built precedent over time. In France it seems to me to be a group of people bombinating about classics in a vaccum, who when they were given the chance to govern with no practical experience royally (no pun intended) screwed things up.
megas_yiannakis wrote: i cannot believe that an educated person learning classical languages can even show a slight ignorant beliefe in the idea that Alexander the Great was Macedonian and not greek. this bothers me greatly. anybody who knows anything about history knows that the Macedonians (makednos=high-landers/tall people) were just as greek as the spartans and athenians, not only culturally, but also in the way they thought and what they strove to do.
YES the romans conquered greece... but then the greeks tamed the lion. The Romans always looked to the greeks as a more cultured and educated people.
plus it is obsered to think that a people is more 'cultured' than another by the fact that they 'conquered' them, it is infact implying the opposite.
Greek culture is minimal?... cough... the thought of this idea makes my hair rise its so wiered. I think this is a case of that greek culture has become SO fundamental in western culture in general that one cannot easily pick it out and so 'look thats greek!'. If anyone lives in a democratic country, they are experiencing GREEK CULTURE. If someone is at all christian, they are experiencing GREEK CULTURE (considering the way greek minds developed the christian religion). If someone decides to go and learn maths, physics or even chemistry (atomos), they are experiencing GREEK CULTURE. If someone wishes to learn philosophy, they are in every way experiencing GREEK CULTURE.
The whole roman culture is based heavily upon the greek. Many "Roman ideas" are actually greek, and people go their whole lives never knowing this.
i agree that it is not at all practical to say a culture 'needs' greek, or that it would even be an advantage. One thing i can agree on and say though is that western culture was created in Athens. <<< this sentence itself sums up exactly how fundemental GREEK CULTURE is to Westerners.
if what was implied was saying that 'modern greek' culture today is minimal, then again without trying to be mean or overly nationalistic : what does one expect from a country that has been through that much? Modern Greece in my mind is completely synonymous with ancient greece, culture and language. although it might be.... cough minimal that has no bearing on how rich the culture itslef is.
Chris Weimer wrote:True Plato played his part, but what a horrible part he played! The threw off the critical inquiry of Socrates and opted for the theory of God from Plato!
Arvid wrote:When modern-day Christians use terms like "life-affirming" to describe their propaganda, we're not supposed to laugh in their faces, even though what they call life-affirming in fact embodies virulent hatred for everything that characterizes life as it exists here on Earth: flesh, sex, reproduction, mortality, change, evolution, etc., etc.
Arvid wrote:Sorry--I didn't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, but you have to admit that fanatics such as I describe are running the country (into the ground) right now. Tom Delay on the Columbine School massacre: "What do you expect when they teach evolution in school?"
It was a matter of classification. When people talk about Greek civilization, they usually refer to Attic civilization - since it was the Attic Golden Age that is preserved most today, and it was the Attic influence that Rome primarily took up (though other Hellenic groups certainly gave their influence).
The Romans hated the Greeks. Remember that Cato even forbade the learning of Greek, and his grandson, who bothered to learn it, was no fan either.
So you think that the Gauls were more cultured than the Romans? How quaint
Are you kidding me? Greek took so much learning from the Babylonians, by your very analogy all the Greeks were actually experiencing BABYLONIAN CULTURE. Christianity formed first in Judaea, therefore if anyone at all is Christian, then they're experiencing JUDAEAN CULTURE. And for someone who is the watchdog of Greek culture, I'm surprised that he calls chemistry (atomos).
Which Roman ideas are actually Greek? I can name you plenty, but let's see what you come up with. Consuls, for instance, are Roman - the Roman election system (which was Democratic) was not Greek. Amphitheatres were Roman, and thus the circuses inside were Roman as well (actually, Etruscan, but not Greek). The toga was Roman, the idea of pietas was Roman, satire was Roman... The above are some of the defining characteristics of Romanitas - sine Graecis.
By the time Christianity was advent, Alexandria replaced Athens as the center of Greek culture. There was no democracy in early Medieval periods - much of Western culture was more heavily influenced by Germanic (who moved into Gaul), Norse, and the dying Latin influence than the Byzantine, and only later was Aristotle rediscovered. True Plato played his part, but what a horrible part he played! The threw off the critical inquiry of Socrates and opted for the theory of God from Plato! If anything, that part of Greek civilization has hurt the Western world more than it has helped. We waited for Galileo to refute Aristotle's ignorance.
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