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ab omni parte?

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ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:06 pm

Hi all,<br /><br />Stuck on another Wheelock. 'Nihil est ab omni parte beatum.'<br />Nothing is from every part happy.<br /><br />eh?<br /><br />Anyone know what this means?<br /><br />Cheers<br />Phil
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby Magistra » Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:36 pm

Without knowing the context, I'd guess that the idea is that there's always a little bad with the good. Nothing is totally good; and, by extension, nothing is totally bad.<br /><br />Sound reasonable?<br /><br />Magistra
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:49 pm

That's one of the problems with Wheelock, and probably most of these 'Learn Latin' books - no context to the examples.<br /><br />While your translation sounds quite reasonable, I'd quite like to know quite how to get there from the actual Latin words, if you know what I mean.<br /><br />Phil
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby Magistra » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:11 pm

Quote:<br />That's one of the problems with Wheelock, and probably most of these 'Learn Latin' books - no context to the examples.<br /><br />You said a mouthful there!!<br /><br />Most writings from the ancient authors ( & modern ones too) come "in context". The passages you learn from should too. You learned your native language in context (& by immersion). Not too many people are lucky enough to have the opportunity to learn Latin "from the cradle", so to speak; however, everyone should be offered the opportunity to learn it in context, not in a series of sentences contrived solely based on the current grammar topic. This is why the "reading programs" can be very successful. There is the cohesion of context which allows the student to progress with the grammar by internalizing it rather than learning "rules" and applying them ad infinitem to contrived sentences.<br /><br />"How I got there" was by assuming it was perhaps a proverb & then, using life experience and knowledge, reasoning what was probably meant behind the words. Proverbs in one's one native language can be puzzling; in another language, they can be impossible.<br /><br />We're back to context again. Context, to me, does not just pertain to the words in the passage around what you're reading, but also what you bring into it from prior knowledge of the topic, the times, etc.<br /><br />Magistra<br />
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby benissimus » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:18 pm

Before you begin to trash Wheelock :!: , keep in mind that most textbooks don't even offer genuine Latin and instead supply boring, synthetic text or silly (sometimes fun) little stories. It's sort of annoying that Wheelock doesn't explain what the sentences are talking about, but at least the sentences have a deeper meaning beyond mere translation. If you want longer translation exercises, just go to the back of the book and look for a passage that you can at least mostly understand. The reading passages at the ends of the chapters aren't that bad either (except in the first chapters :roll: )<br /><br />

Magistra, what book do you recommend?
Last edited by benissimus on Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:31 pm

Please don't think I'm blaming Wheelock, I realise that he has to put in some basic sentences just to demonstrate how a grammar point that is being explained appears in a sentence. To his credit, each chapter does have one or two complete paragraphs, which I often find easier to translate, probably exactly because there is context to help.<br /><br />However, if this particular sentence is idiomatic, it would have been nice to have been warned!<br /><br />As for checking the selected reading at the end of the book, I've looked at that - then quickly closed the book! Not quite to that stage yet.<br /><br />
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby benissimus » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:58 pm

Was that passage Horace? It seems vaguely familiar. I remember my teacher going over it in class... something about the Stoic philosophy... "Carpe diem".
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:11 pm

I don't have my Wheelock with me, but it was in Chapter 16<br />Sententiae Antiquae Q10, if any one has theirs handy and can tell me who wrote it.<br />
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby bingley » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:12 am

From a search of Perseus: <br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hor.+Carm.+2.16.1<br />
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:31 am

Thanks, Bingley, I hadn't though to check the 'net (doh!)<br /><br />Found it at<br /><br />http://www.giga-usa.com/gigaweb1/quotes2/quauthoracex014.htm<br /><br />Nihil est ad omni parte beatum.<br />Nothing is beautiful from every point of view. HORACE (QUINTUS HORATIUS FLACCUS)<br /><br />But wait, parte means 'point of view'? how so?
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby benissimus » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:48 am

I wonder why the translator would choose the word "beautiful". Beatus doesn't really mean beautiful, in the normal sense; it's more like "blessed/fortunate/happy".
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby phil » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:57 am

Here's another one from http://www.epicurus.net/otium.html<br /><br />Nothing is blessed forever.<br /><br />Suddenly 'ab omni parte' now means 'forever'.<br /><br />Great. I've gone from lost, to confused: now I'm frustrated. What's next?<br />
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby klewlis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:25 am

I wouldn't worry about it too much... there are always a thousand possible interpretations... but we've got the gist of it, haven't we? <br /><br />:)
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby Keesa » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:46 pm

As in any languages, when translating, try not to think of Latin words that stand for English words. Words in any language represent ideas, concepts, and these concepts are represented by other words in other languages. When you realize that beatus, for example, doesn't mean "happy" but the general idea of blessedness/fortune/happiness, you stop having to translate everything literally, and start being able to "get the gist" of it better. <br /><br />This, at any rate, is what I've found to be true in my French studies. I'm not advanced enough to be able to speak definitively about Latin, but I would imagine that it would be the same. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby Episcopus » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:55 pm

Literal translation is what I like, the gist comes with 'Sprachgefuhl' - the natural feeling for the language.<br /><br />For example credere, nocere, parere etc. go with datives and it helps at first when learning that credere can be 'to give belief to' and nocere 'to do harm to'; but afterwards comprehending them properly and expecting them to take indirect dative objects is reflex.<br /><br />This, at any rate, is what I've found to be true in my Latin studies. I'm not advanced enough to be able to speak definitively about Latin, but I would imagine that it would be the same.
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Re:ab omni parte?

Postby benissimus » Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:02 pm

Keesa, I agree completely. Sometimes I do choose words that my dictionary (or teacher) doesn't approve of as a translation even. In this case, however, it seems like a bit of a stretch to move from a concept of good fortune to good appearance. On the other hand, he could have been referring to the fact that something beautiful is "blessed" with perfection. Now instead of just figuring out what the Latin means, we have to decipher the translator's own poetry!
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