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grammar lesson needed

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grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:02 pm

Vale patria mea. <br /> Farewell\good-bye my native\fatherland land.<br /><br /> vale = farewell\ be strong, (goodbye)<br /> finite verb, 2nd conj., 2nd person, singular, Imper. Act.<br /><br /> patria = fatherland \country\native land <br /> noun, (f) 1st dec., voc., singular, Indic., Act. <br /><br /> mea = my<br />adj.? (f) 1st dec., voc., singular, Indic. Act. (agreeing with it’s noun)<br /><br />My trouble with this is: mea is not a voc. sing. ending where have i errored? <br /><br />Can anyone explain?<br />I also do not understand the grammatical reason that makes the Imperative in the above sentence, 2nd person. <br /><br />
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:20 pm

vale is imperative because it is giving the command to "be well!" (although we don't really think of it as a command, but rather as a wish)<br /><br />mea *is* in the vocative, and does agree with the noun. Note that the vocative form in this case is the same as the nominative form. Again, this is chapter 11 which you haven't reached yet.<br /><br />Does that make sense?
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:42 pm

vale is imperative because it is giving the command to "be well!" (although we don't really think of it as a command, but rather as a wish)<br /><br /> My question here revolves around the second person 2nd / I<br />understand Imper. can be singular or plural / how is it 2nd person? I'm not sure how (or why)an Imperative has person.<br /><br />mea *is* in the vocative, and does agree with the noun. <br /><br />I jumped to Chapter 11 I cannot find -ae as a voc. singular ending in the 1st declension. I know it agrees with it's noun Help? lol
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:50 pm

Salve\te<br />I understand the Voc part of my question now figured out my own stupid mistake <br /><br />Vale\te <br /><br /> Ricardus<br />
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:58 pm

a second person imperative is something like "let him do this"<br /><br />(in the sense that he must, not in the sense that he may...)<br /><br />it's almost like "may my fatherland prosper"
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:28 pm

Salve\te<br /><br /> Ok, I may well have answered my own questions. Do I understand correctly that all Imperatives are in the 2nd person? If so, I have answered my own stupid questions (grrrrr)<br /><br /> Vale\te<br /> Ricardus
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:34 pm

oops sorry i was thinking third person.<br /><br />no, you can have third person imperatives as well (hence my premature comment above ;)
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:01 pm

salve\te,<br /><br /> Maybe you can clarify this via another road. <br /><br />2nd person singular = lauda =praise!<br />2nd person plural = laudate (more than 1) praise<br /><br />this comes from page 5 in Wheelock's 5th edition<br /> \ looking in 501 latin verb (Barrons), it only list Imperatives in the present with no indication as to person. What makes the example given above, 2nd person. ?? / Also pardon my <br />many elementary questions, i don't have a magista\magister<br /><br />Vale\te<br /><br /> Ricardus<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby Ricardus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:39 pm

salve\te<br /><br />Imperatives:<br /><br />1st person = unless you talk to yourself there is no 1 st person Imperatives. Is that correct?<br /><br />2nd person = I ask you or others. Is that correct?<br /><br />3rd person I'm telling someone what someone else did?<br />Is that correct?<br /><br />maybe?? is this the sense of it?<br /><br />vale\te<br />
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:50 pm

3rd imperative is what a third person SHOULD do. <br /><br />we don't really have it in english and have to say something to the effect of "let him do this" or "he should do this" or "i order him to do this"<br /><br />now that I revisit my forms I'm not sure that latin has it either... maybe someone more advanced than I can clarify ;)<br /><br />but greek has it!<br />
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Re:grammar lesson needed

Postby benissimus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:46 pm

Ok guys, let's keep in mind that he is only on the first few chapters of Wheelock and that he doesn't need his head cluttered up with jussive subjunctives!<br /><br />Basic imperatives, like vale or lauda don't really need a person. Usually they are directed at a person whom you are talking to. The person whom you are talking to is normally the second person, because by definition, the second person is to whom you are speaking. This isn't very important right now because you will rarely address the person in the sentence with an imperative, but rather will tell them what to do. i.e.- "Praise the people of that city" or "Be strong"; in neither of these sentences do we require a second person, although we can certainly add a vocative if we choose to.<br /><br />Vale is simply an idiom that means "good-bye". If you want to translate it literally, it means "be well" as does salve which means "hello". This is just the way it is. If you look at English, it is not much different: Good-bye= God be with you; Hello is a variant of "Hail!" which also means "be well".<br /><br />As for these noun/verb analyses:<br /><br />vale = farewell\ be strong, (goodbye)<br />finite verb, 2nd conj., 2nd person, singular, Imper. Act.<br />All correct, except that imperatives do not have set persons by any reference or parsing method I have ever seen. The person is implied by context, so you do not need to say "2nd person", because you can just as easily say "Tell them" (say it to yourself in your head, or mutter under your breath) and you will still use the imperative singular. In other words, the whole singular side of the chart goes under "singular imperative" and the plurals go under "plural imperative" (until subjunctive.... >:()<br /><br />patria = fatherland \country\native land <br />noun, (f) 1st dec., voc., singular, Indic., Act. <br />Yes, but nouns cannot be indicative nor active, those are verbal attributes.<br /><br />mea = my<br />adj.? (f) 1st dec., voc., singular, Indic. Act. (agreeing with it’s noun)<br />Yes, it is an adjective. Adjectives do not have declensions, only genders, so rather than "1st dec.", write "fem.". You are correct that it is vocative and singular, but again, only verbs can be indicative or active.<br /><br />I hope I have cleared things up for you. I think that all of this parsing is just going to confuse you until you are a little more advanced in your studies. If you do, however, wish to label all of your nouns and verbs according to their classifications and morphology, then you must know what they are:<br />Nouns- number, case, declension, gender<br />Verbs- person, number, conjugation, mood, tense<br />Adjectives- gender, class (1-2nd declension or 3rd)<br /><br />vale amice!
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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