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Sentence first enclitics

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Sentence first enclitics

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:59 am

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Postby Bert » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:38 am

That is an interesting question. I don't have a lot of time right now (seeing that it is bedtime) but my first thought is that it might be because τις is the same word as τίς. The accent indicates that the intonation is different but still, it is the same word. If this is indeed the reason then words like πώς, ποτέ and πού should occur first in a sentence as well. Anyone know if that happens?
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Re: Sentence first enclitics

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:39 am

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Postby Bert » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:46 am

Looking in Smyth (187) I found that enclitics retain their accents if (among other things) they are first in a sentence. The examples given all have a post possitive following so it does not prove anyting, it just gives some confirmation that your question is valid.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:49 am

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Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:56 am

Bert wrote:Looking in Smyth (187) I found that enclitics retain their accents if (among other things) they are first in a sentence. The examples given all have a post possitive following so it does not prove anyting, it just gives some confirmation that your question is valid.

Thanks -- I did look it up in Smyth but I seem to have missed that part (c) but it does answer part of my questions. I guess we can see the τινες δε in the NT without a corresponding τινες μεν as a fairly straightforward development of the Classical usage, and I guess this does sort of eliminate the ποτε example I found. Maybe then moving to other postpositive conjunctions is not so unnatural either? But if this postpositive hypothesis is correct, then that would leave examples like 1 Tim 5:24 even stranger (and probably doubly so because they don't involve τινες). Maybe this is a colloquialism. Hmm...

Edit again to add that this still seems quite odd, and self-contradictory, behaviour for enclitics, even the example from Classical Greek.
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Postby annis » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:00 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:10 am

That makes sense, to distinguish them that way. But are μέν and δέ enclitics in the strict sense, since they don't seem to form accentuation groups with the words that precede them?

Part of the difficulty for me is that I'm trying to figure out what enclitics actually were in ancient Greek -- and comparing to the modern languages I'm familiar doesn't offer any help -- I may be wrong but the Greek enclitics (at least those you've labelled non-syntactic) seem to be "phonological enclitics" in that syntactically they're free but they form single accentuation groups with words that precede them, whereas in the languages I know, enclitics are also "syntactic enclitics" in that their position is rigidly determined even if in general the word order is very free (these might be a good parallel to your syntactic enclitics). (I guess I could rewrite that in term of clitics in general instead of just enclitics.)

I'm wondering now if these uses (in the ~ μεν ... ~ δε construction and so on) could be relics of when these words had full accentuation? I know, e.g., that some of the prepositions were fully accented at one point with things like ἔπι in Homer.

Another part of the difficulty, now that I think of it, is that in your average Greek sentence so many words can lose their accent completely (unless the grave accent means something else), so why couldn't an enclitic word start a sentence if say λαὸς can? Was there any real phonological reason keeping these words from first position?

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts that are not so close to my original question.
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Postby annis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:19 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:That makes sense, to distinguish them that way. But are μέν and δέ enclitics in the strict sense, since they don't seem to form accentuation groups with the words that precede them?


D'oh! I have a bad habit of muddling up the distinction between enclitics and postpositives.

Meter gives some hints about how tightly μέν and δέ a linked to the word they follow (i.e., caesura patterns) but it's ambivalent.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Bert » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:41 pm

syntactic, pragmatic, non-syntactic.

Do you mind giving a short description or explanation of these terms?
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Postby annis » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:09 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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