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Classical vs Medieval Latin

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Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:48 am

I discovered just recently that my expected next-step-in-Classical-Latin course is going to be a Medieval Latin course instead. It starts next week - or, at least, the term does, 'cause the course is by correspondence, again, as usual....<br /><br />I'm wondering if anyone out there has done anything with Medieval Latin as well as Classical, and if there is any advice before I jump off the cliff into something at least slightly new.....<br /><br />Much thanks....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby klewlis » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:02 am

it sounds like a lot of fun! let us know how it goes.<br /><br />where do you get your distance ed courses from?
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:12 am

[quote author=klewlis link=board=3;threadid=562;start=0#5057 date=1062039742]<br />it sounds like a lot of fun! let us know how it goes.<br /><br />where do you get your distance ed courses from?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />It's Waterloo again. We had that long discussion about distance education in the Open Board "New Teacher = Horror" discussion, now several pages of threads down.<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Skylax » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:02 am

A (French) site that gives many (international) Internet resources in Medieval Latin (dictionaries etc.) :<br /><br />http://web.ccr.jussieu.fr/urfist/menestrel/medlatin.htm<br /><br />Enjoy !
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:39 am

Merci beaucoup!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby adz000 » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:34 pm

Don't let it corrupt your latinity! Licentious uses of the subjunctive, corrupt orthography, and promiscuous vocabulary. Of course it's easy enough that it will trick one into thinking that he/she knows Latin. Keep Cicero under the pillow in case you wake up with nightmares in which Latin is actually easy.
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:35 am

[quote author=adz000 link=board=3;threadid=562;start=0#5094 date=1062192848]<br />Keep Cicero under the pillow in case you wake up with nightmares in which Latin is actually easy.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /> ??? ??? ??? You mean it isn't? <br /><br />Okay, so I'm a little tied to the dictionary yet, and have only tackled (majorly) Caesar (8 years ago), Vergil, Cicero and Horace..... But I like it so much that I don't think of it as difficult, even when the grammar makes me have to think a whole bunch!<br /><br />Okay, I promise to intersperse the medieval with the Classical to stay sorted out....<br /><br />Thanks for the pointer!<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Keesa » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:31 pm

I also happen to think of Latin as fairly easy. Of course, I'm a long way from an expert on it yet, but it isn't "hard". Perhaps it's just something to do with the fact that I'm learning Greek and Gaelic at the same time; Gaelic is easier than Greek, and Latin is easier than Gaelic. (Of course I don't count French, since I've been learning it so much longer.) <br /><br />Let me know how your medieval Latin comes out; it might be an interesting next step, after I become fluent in classical Latin. <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Moerus » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:00 pm

There is a reason why they call it 'classical 'Latin! In that stage the language became (almost) perfect. Grammatica atque splendor Latinae linguae classicae supergredi non potest! The English words didn't come to mind, so I use Latin. Can you imagine that I sometimes don't remember words and I only can say it the Latin way. Sometimes people must think I'm a little bit ill! Lol. <br />Back to classical Latin. It's the best stage of the language for learning it and that's why we learn classical Latin in school, etc. <br />Medieval Latin has some great writers and auters too. So does neo-Latin! And I really recommend reading it. But indeed medieval writers don't always respect classical rules and classical vocabulary. the orthography is sometimes different, cause they had an other pronunciation. <br />So, I recommend it, but you must know your cicero very well, before you begin with medieval stuff! There are even auters ( Gregory of Tours, ...), who confess themselves that they don't write Ltin verry well, but they had too, there was no other language for writing something with 'splendor' or 'gratitudo'. <br />I give an example; <br />Sometimes Gregory of Tours translates 'the son of the king' as 'filius rex' instead of 'filius regis'.<br />You see, sometimes it's verry difficult to see the sense of the medieval writers. I must say that Gregory of Tours is n exception, other writers follow the classical rules more.<br /><br />So good luck!
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Lumen_et_umbra » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:34 pm

I have always had the impression that Medieval Latin blows, and now my suspicions have been confirmed.
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Moerus » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:42 pm

@Lumen_et_umbra<br /><br />I wouldn'r say it that way. But I must confess I like Classical Latin most, in second place, neo-latin and the humanists (Erasmus, Lipsius, etc.) and I read sometimes medieval Latin too. But the thing I'm really doing now is Vulgar Latin. I love to see how the language evoluated into Romance languages! How the cases dissappeared and the etymology of words etc.
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:08 pm

Thanks, Moerus... I think.... ;)<br /><br />The first assignment we've been given is a fairly large chunk of Augustine, as a "bridge" to "real" Medieval Latin. I'm finding words in that that don't show up in the Classical dictionary, though I can figure them out as new verb+preposition combinations, or nouns relating to verbs, or something....<br /><br />I tremble about the Gregory of Tours comments - he's one of the authors in the text, though I can't remember if he's in one of the assignments....<br /><br />I do find that seeing the way the language changes is interesting, but I'm not sure I'm well enough grounded in Classical Latin to do more than stay afloat at this stage... I hope so!<br /><br />Again, thanks for the comments.<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Episcopus » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:53 am

Latin easier than Gaelic?<br /><br />Qué? As the spanish say :o
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Keesa » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:34 pm

Only slightly easier, Episcopus, and mostly because of pronunciation and the fact that it's much closer to French. <br /><br />What are the main differences between Classical Latin and Medival Latin, other than vocabulary? Is there much grammatical difference? <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Episcopus » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:38 pm

What, Latin pronunciation close to french? Depends...comparing it to other tongues...<br />dipthongs like ae, oe etc are largely the same in welsh for example.<br /><br />french oe = ergh<br /><br />latin oe = oe in proelium ;) or oil <br /><br />Ah but Keesa the further you go it DOES become harder than Diana puellas suas amat...<br /><br />Latin is far harder than french! French is a welcome easy break...<br /><br />Personally I see no point in medieval latin...it's just a bunch of bishops (literally) writing in the blood stained basements of their churches about latest sacrifice numbers and new nuns. <br /><br />Hmm...when one puts it that way...
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby benissimus » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:16 am

Personally I see no point in medieval latin...it's just a bunch of bishops (literally) writing in the blood stained basements of their churches about latest sacrifice numbers and new nuns.
<br /><br />Actually, that is not true at all.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Moerus » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:20 am

Personally I see no point in medieval latin...it's just a bunch of bishops (literally) writing in the blood stained basements of their churches about latest sacrifice numbers and new nuns. <br /><br /><br />No, you are totally wrong! You have ecclesiastic storries too, but that's not it, there is more. By the way, storries about saints and nuns can be fun too. It is a must to read about beatrice (I don't know if there is a storry in Latin about her, but it's also a medieval storry). She rides on a pig that's set on fire! Hiw fun to read that! <br />But there are also many other storries, you can read about historical events, love storries, scarry things, songs, etc. etc. <br /><br />Jordanes writes a history of the Goths, Isidore of Seville his etymologies and I confirm that you will laugh with some of them, Paul the Deacon his History of the Lombards, Alciun his poems, Einhard hus well-known LIfe of Charlemagne, Walahfrid Strabo his book on Horticulture, Dhuoda his manual for his son, you also have The Alexander romances = storries about Alexander the Great, Wiliam of Malmesbury with his Deeds of the kings of England. You also have Heloise and Abelard, the love-storry you must have read! And you sertainly have the formulas of wiches and magicians, very interesting. There is so many to read beside the nun-storries. And besides you also have storries of nuns who were naughty or tirades against some popes, etc. <br /><br />If you read any of these things, you will see I 'm wright ...
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:17 am

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=562;start=0#5244 date=1062592472]<br />What are the main differences between Classical Latin and Medival Latin, other than vocabulary? Is there much grammatical difference? <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Well, actually, there isn't much vocabulary difference (thus far... and there better not be, since we haven't got a medieval Latin dictionary to work with!) The grammar is looser, apparently. Augustine, so far, isn't too bad, but for the occasional word that isn't in my dictionaries (effurbui, anyone? I think it's a first person singular past tense of something, but I can't figure out what....)<br /><br />And Episcopus, the King Arthur stories start showing up in medieval Latin, and there are Alexander the Great works, a history of the Goths, a history of France, various letters of Charlemagne, "Carmina Burana", a poem about a guy and his fiancee who happen to be hostages of Attila the Hun (that sounds good!), some love poems for Benissimus and some drinking songs, all in this textbook I get to start playing with, after I finish with Augustine....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:25 am

Is Augustine considered Medieval? Isn't he only 4th C?
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby bingley » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:26 am

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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Moerus » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am

Augustine in fact is an autor of the late Latinity, post-classical period. But in medieval handbooks, he is mentioned as a sort of transition to real medieval texts. <br /> <br />Can you give me the reference, where you find 'effurbui'. When I blieve the dictionaries, it doesn't exist. So can you please give me the refference; Augustinus? Which work? which paragraph and line? <br /><br />Thnx, <br />Moerus
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Milito » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:47 pm

[quote author=Moerus link=board=3;threadid=562;start=15#5344 date=1062761692]<br />Augustine in fact is an autor of the late Latinity, post-classical period. But in medieval handbooks, he is mentioned as a sort of transition to real medieval texts. <br /> <br />Can you give me the reference, where you find 'effurbui'. When I blieve the dictionaries, it doesn't exist. So can you please give me the refference; Augustinus? Which work? which paragraph and line? <br /><br />Thnx, <br />Moerus<br />[/quote]<br /><br />We were given Augustine as a "transition" to "real" medieval Latin.<br /><br />I found "efferbui" in Book 2 "Caput 2", fairly far down. I actually have since found it - "Words" says it's the 1st person singular perfect past form of "effervesco". When I checked a second dictionary, I did find "efferbui" mentioned as belonging to that verb, although a double check on the first dictionary confirmed that it hadn't mentioned the form at all.<br /><br />So how do I deal with this connundrum? I go order Lewis' Latin Dictionary. (Not Lewis and Short; though sorely tempted, I just couldn't justify the $300.00 Canadian - yet.... quite....) Nothing like a third opinion....<br /><br />effervesco, effervescere, efferbui/efferii.... (intr) to boil over; (fig) to rage.<br /><br />Interesting how that word has migrated into "effervescent", now applied to mineral water and soda pop.....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby bingley » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:20 am

From the Perseus Lewis and Short:<br /><br />ef-fervesco , ferbui (so Cic. Cael. 31, 77 al.; ante- and post-class. fervi, Cato R. R. 115, 1; Tac. A. 1, 74), 3, v. inch. n. <br /><br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2315222<br /><br />
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Keesa » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:25 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=562;start=15#5328 date=1062724630]<br /><br />various letters of Charlemagne, <br /><br />I'm supposed to be related to him...<br /><br />"Carmina Burana", <br /><br />I've read that in English...it's neat! <br /><br />a poem about a guy and his fiancee who happen to be hostages of Attila the Hun (that sounds good!), <br />[/quote]<br /><br />And what poem is that? ;D<br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:29 am

The Carmina Burana? Muahah.
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby soymilk » Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:06 pm

Hi, I'm a beginner to Latin and I was wondering what are the differences between the two? Is there small differences or huge ones?
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Re:Classical vs Medieval Latin

Postby Moerus » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:19 am

Hey soymilk and welcome, <br /><br />the differences between classical and medieval Latine vary. It depends on the time the work or the author comes from. Medieval Latin encloses a whole and long, very long period. How closer to classical Latine a medieval work is in time, how less difference there will be. <br />If you are farther away from classical Latine, you will notice more differences in vocabulary, morphology and even in the syntaxe. <br /><br />I give an exemple. You will find 'valere' most of the time for 'posse'. Terrifying is Gregory of Tours who uses 'filius rex' for 'filius regis'. But he sais himself that he does not know Latin. Only there was no other language at that time to write, if your purpose was to write a work for people with culture etc.<br /><br />So I hope I gave a satisfying anser and I apologize for my English, I think everybody speaks better Latin than I speak English. So next time I'll anser in Latin, ;)<br /><br />Greetz, <br />Moerus. <br />
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